Shishigashira question

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Atapi, Jul 23, 2015.

  1. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Hi, I have a young Shishigashira (3-4yrs) planted in-ground 2 yrs ago. Recently, I noticed that its leaves are not fully opened like the normal Shishi instead it curved and looks smaller (see photos). I am in zone 6 and the tree is in full sun. Is it lacking of water or else?.
    Any input is appreciated.
     

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  2. TheScarletPrince

    TheScarletPrince Member

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    Have you tilled the ground around it lately? That is always helpful to give the roots more oxygen. When the ground is compacted it doesn't help plants much.
    Have you ever given it any food? Seabird guano is a good selection. Can also use Mykos root fungus to build roots and Azos microbes to nitrogen fix the soil.
     
  3. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    What i have found over the years since i first planted my youngster out is that every year it will put more growth on the branches,and the older the tree gets you will find that last years growth tend to be the leaves that turn the brighter green and open out more, and the newer shoots on the top stay more curly and tight.

    Pictures of my Shishigashira planted out in 2008 and present day nearly eight foot in height now and still growing,only gets watered, but every year when the fall drop happens i always leave the dead leaf mulch on the ground and never clear.

    Pic 1 Young tree
    Pic 2 New growth look how tight and curly leaves are at the top,almost tube like
    pic 3 Deep growth near base thick green and well open wide leaves.
    pic 4 Full tree you can see the top branches how long this years growth is, also how tight the leaves are ,next year these will fill out more and the new growth will start again, making the tree larger and more bushier.

    Wouldn't wory at all about yours, just bear in mind how big these trees grow.

    Stunner in the fall as well always the last to drop it's leaf.
     

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  4. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    @ThescarletPrince - thanks for the input. Yes, I just experimented by adding some root boosting 'microroyzea' around the root base. Will see how it goes but by reading Roebuk input, I will need to be more patient and watch it grows a bit more.
    Roebuk - what a beautiful and healthy Shishi that you have there.
    Thanks again, steven
     
  5. bub72ck

    bub72ck Active Member

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    That Shishi is awesome Roebuck!

    Is the tree in pic one the same as the large tree? If, so how long did it take to get that large?
     
  6. TheScarletPrince

    TheScarletPrince Member

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    Read their post! :P

    @ post below, man, wish I was around during those times! Sounds like a golden era...
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2015
  7. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    Hi Steven,

    What you have is what I consider true to form for Shishigashira. Out of the two that you have Steven, the one you pictured is true to form and probably came from a different grower than the other tree you describe as being more open and traditional palmate like leaves. I have seen some bad examples of Shishigashira being offered by some growers.

    As a side note, one of our larger local growers sell both true to form and a less than desirable examples of Shishigashira. For a retailer who cares about what they sell, they need to go out and select and tag from their offerings the trees that are true to form. The retails that don't care take what comes off the truck. When someone buys the wrong example as a stock plant and they start grafting from it, the problem is born. Sad, but this happens too often.

    I have a Shishigashira that is over 35 years old and it has leaves like what is pictured. This was long before everyone started grafting what ever they can get their hands on while not knowing anything about the variety, just taking someone's word for it. This was back before things got messed up, back when quality and true to form varieties actually meant something. A time before greed and mass production grafting flooded the market.

    Anyway, that's my cynical 2 cents worth.
     
  8. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Steven, Sorry for giving you the wrong information re your Shishi , thought i had a true to form tree but it appears not.

    Good luck with it anyway.
     
  9. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Please forgive my interuption but I think JTI is referring to the unpictured plant Atapi is describing,not your plant Roebuk :)
    by the way welcome back JTI,haven't seen much of you lately
     
  10. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Vertrees refers to the Japanese having two forms of 'Shishigashira'.
    'Ojishi' (male lion) being more compact with more open larger leaves, and 'Mejishi' (female lion) a taller, more widely distributed form.
    Both are pictured in the photo gallery.
     
  11. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    You are correct, I did not take a look at Roebuk's tree, only Atapi. Thank you for the welcome back!

    Since we have changed direction a little from the original post, I will elaborate on Shishigashira, 'Mejishi', and 'Ojishi'.

    When i speak of Shishigashira its the same as Mejishi. Ojishi is all together different. I own both, so I took some pictures to show the difference.

    The first two leaves in the line up are from my 35+ year old Shishigashira and the third is from the same form that I recently got from Buchholz Nursery a few years ago. You can see the leaves are very similar and the tree's are both extremely slow growing.

    The 4th leaf is a version of Shishigashira that is much faster growing. The leaves are larger, darker green, and don't curl as much. I think this version is more popular because it is much faster growing. It does not take as much time to grow to a sell-able size, so it would be a more profitable variety to have in production for a grower. For the industry, I think this would be an improved version of Shishigashira.

    The 5th leaf is a less desirable version of Shishigashira. The leaf does not curl as much and its slower growing. I bought it because it filled a need for a bonsai at the time. I bought it for the potential as bonsai and not to represent Shishigashira in my collection.

    The 6th and 7th leaves are from Ojishi. They are dark green, larger, and don't curl as much.

    Notice the length of petiole between the leaves from left to right, they go from extremely short to long. My 35+ year old shishigasira has extremely short petiole.

    Note that I have seen some much worse examples of Shishigashira that the leaf does not curl at all, but I do not have any pictures.
     

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  12. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Very interesting JTI.The leaves on your old tree are extremely curled,more than I'm used to seeing....infact if I'm honest I'm not sure if I like them turned inside out,does the whole tree look like that?So perhaps my tree(just expired boo hoo)was not true to form or any I've seen come to that.....interesting.The last two leaves clearly look different and I've so far never encountered them,but then I've never seen Ojishi.
     
  13. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    Yes, the whole tree is curled like that. Oh, one other thing that maybe different is my old tree has bright orange buds in the spring. I don't think the dark green form has orange buds. Here is a picture of the buds and emerging leaves in the Spring:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/japan...TXX-beoAwZ-aXWRza-aXaYtD-aX9G5H-beoMmk-aXXtoc

    Here is the tree in spring (in the pot) along the right side of the photo:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/japan...TXX-beoAwZ-aXWRza-aXaYtD-aX9G5H-beoMmk-aXXtoc

    here it is in early fall:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/japan...XX-beoAwZ-aXWRza-aXaYtD-aX9G5H-beoMmk-aXXtoc/

    Ojishi in early fall
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/japanesemaplegarden/10907204165/

    Attached is a picture of Ojishi from today.
     

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  14. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Hmm,the new pics. look more like I'm used to seeing,they don't have that dried out look of the previous pics.However you're right,I don't recall bright orange buds.Makes me wonder if I've ever seen the real deal.May I ask,is the bark on yours like a beautiful smooth matt green paint all over?..that was one of the most noticable features of the plant I had.
     
  15. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    Yes, the bark is a matt green. For leaf comparison, I should have used pictures of the trees from today, instead of Spring pictures. Attached are pictures from today, file name is the corresponding leaf from the picture of the leaves with coin for size comparison.
     

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  16. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Thankyou for this valuable info JTI.You know,I've always thought we were quite lucky in UK.Although I've seen mislabelled plants frequently,I rarely see imposters as far as I know(I guess it's a supply&demand thing)Even the notorious bloodgood usually looks what I believe to be correct here,seedlings just get an Atropurpureum label slapped on and they sell very well and no-one's gonna bother grafting a seedling.
    Looking at your specimen I've never seen it here and with that light colour the whole plant actually looks quite nice....I've changed my mind.I'd say your 1st bonsai pic.most closely resembles my ex plant and all the one's I've seen
    It's a shame,although I also like the 'wrong' version,I think it should've been given a different name.I guess the original has been around for donkeys years and from the name I assume it must be quite revered in Japan.
    I'll be looking out for plants with orange buds next spring :)
     

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