Forums Restructuring

[The Hollyberry Lady]

Pardon me Leaf, but I was wrong to have posted my plant shots and have now been issued an infraction point for hijacking the thread. I saw people giving plant advice earlier, but I bet none of them were penalized...yet I am centered out, once again.

I was only trying to bring the thread back to something other than the parade of back and forth personal insults that seems to be ok here. I was not wilfully and maliciously trying to ruin this thread, for the record. I think I know who is though.

It seems to me that this whole thread is off-topic, so I thought it was allowed. You find offense with my plant photos, but personal and rude comments by troublemakers are allowed though...

Originally Posted by chimera

LOL, the Pied Piper crossed my mind, no reflection on the members though, thanks.

: o

[chimera]

Hmmm, sorry HLB if you took offense, was reflecting on a comment in a previous post #323.

[redster]

hey no offence taken by me. i was meerly stating that when she finds another forum ill follow to get helpful advice from someone that i know cares about my outcome. thats all and nothing more.

if i ever want helpful advice from someone that doesnt care, im already a member of the citrus growers forum and ill get my advice from millet. i follow everyone thats willing to help, i dont discriminate. ill just be sure to copy and print it before he goes deleting things again. thats all im saying.

hate me and HBL all you want, if actions speak louder than words, his actions are inexcusable arent they. thats some 2k plus posts of great info on citrus gone. now i cant even search for old stuff to help out since there isnt any great fourms anymore. and why is it he had to do that exactly? im almost certain that HBL will be blamed for this too. surely this is a reflection on her and not him.


one thing i will say, to daniel, i hope you didnt delete the old backups and archives of everything completely that millet deleted, i will reiterate, that it would be a shame to lose all that textbook info hes given through the years. if and when yall decide to bring things back, in whatever form, bring back all the posts he deleted along with it. then yall can go on about your business happily without interference from HBL and most likely myself either...i lurked for a good year before i joined here, i only joined because this place seemed different, turns out i was wrong. ill go back to lurking again, no big deal, no sleep loss.

red

[chimera]

Redster, I wasn't disagreeing with your post at all, nor any offense meant. Not familiar with the citrus forum.

[janetdoyle]

I just wish everyone would lighten up, not delete anything, not criticize anyone [what's a few meandering comments on nothing?] and go on as before. Marriages and friendships and business partnerships and jobs and governments are falling apart all around us, disagreements are nothing new. We have something good here, keep what we have, maybe things will improve with our will to help each other, but for anyone who read the Globe & Mail a week or so ago, that Business section on Canadian, American, and World debt... everyone and everything is in debt to everyone else, except maybe the Chinese, so no one's going to be throwing staff and money at this forum. Let's keep it going ourselves, minus any back-biting and criticisms, and we can all get the help we need from each other...

[Futura]

I read remaining posts are not to be deleted. Yippeeee for adding to the world's knowledge.

[Daniel Mosquin]

Originally Posted by The Hollyberry Lady

If the post counts are not important or significant in any way, why have them at all? What is the point of having a fluctuating count everytime you log on? What is the exact reason for a post count?

Its presence comes default with the software package. Altering it -- which isn't impossible -- means I'd have to readjust that template every time the forum software is updated, since it isn't a "switch on/off" sort of thing (people talk about it here). There's no offsetting gain in exchange for making that change to the template each time when updating the software.

On the topic of fluctuating post counts: happens all the time and happens to everyone. When a thread is read by me for whatever reason (e.g., someone has revived an old thread or I'm whittling away at the backlog), I review the posts in it to ensure the thread is information-dense, the thread still has working links, the thread hasn't had deleted posts, and so on. Earlier today, someone revived an old thread in Roses that hadn't had been touched in 5 years. Thread was out-of-date, the new post didn't add new information, so I deleted the entire thread. Three or four members had their post count decrease. In fact, I even mention it in that backlog thread from October 27, 09:

Originally Posted by Daniel Mosquin

Less often: if you have many posts on this forum, you will almost certainly notice a reduction in your post total, as I've also been removing dead threads (e.g., discussions around links to pages that no longer exist), postings that attempted to revive old threads and were unsuccessful, and discussions of a short-term nature (particularly if they've stalled and don't contain commentary that others can learn from).

Information curation.

Originally Posted by kevind76

Aren't these threads being archived, meaning that all conversations will be able to be read, but not added to? If a single person deletes their posts, won't there be holes in the thread/conversation, making it hard to understand, thus useless for archiving?

Yes, because of the post deletions, I've had to delete some entire threads as they no longer made sense. This would, of course, affect other people's post counts (more below)...

Originally Posted by Millet

Actually, UBC should stop all this foolishness, and procrastination, and just simply close this forum down.

That idea was discussed in our meeting, and discarded quickly.

Originally Posted by togata57

If Daniel is so strapped for time, why is he spending it in culling posts?

Intriguing logic. Said another way: If Daniel is doing his job (which includes curating the forums), why is he doing his job?

Originally Posted by togata57

If other staff are doing this, why are they? If money is so tight, why is it not being spent on more worthwhile activities?

You'll have to address that question to my managers as to why they continue to see the importance of the forums.

Originally Posted by The Hollyberry Lady

Pardon me Leaf, but I was wrong to have posted my plant shots and have now been issued an infraction point for hijacking the thread. I saw people giving plant advice earlier, but I bet none of them were penalized...yet I am centered out, once again.

I've reversed the infraction that wasn't given by me, as I had intended to remove the infraction system (due to losing other forum members for giving out minor infractions). That's not to say your behaviour wasn't out-of-line, though.

Originally Posted by redster

thats some 2k plus posts of great info on citrus gone. now i cant even search for old stuff to help out since there isnt any great fourms anymore.

Perhaps 5% of Millet's posts were deleted by him before he hit the 90-day no-edit limit. As for the rest, I will end up deleting them at his request, but it will be some time before I can turn my attention to that clean-up task. Other priorities at the moment, and for the time being, they are doing no harm.

[Daniel Mosquin]

Originally Posted by maf

3 - Archived forums do not seem to count towards people's post counts, this is most likely a function of the software rather than a deliberate act on the part of the moderators. (And who cares about post counts?)

I select which forums have posts that count toward post totals (it's an on/off switch). The Test Bed, and those forums that have gone into the no-new-thread, no-reply archives do not count. I think I'll do the same for Forum Announcements and Forum How-Tos, too.

Originally Posted by maf

There is a small possibility that the archived forums may be re-opened at a later date, depending on finances etc. Hopefully people will help to keep the moderators' work as simple as possible by keeping on-topic and not arguing etc.

Yes, it's a small possibility. Re: keeping my work as simple as possible by posting on topics relevant to the restructured forums would certainly be appreciated by me.

Originally Posted by maf

Many people have offered to help moderate the forum but for privacy and security reasons most of such moderation can only be done by UBC staff, which is understandable as the name of the university is connected to everything posted here.

Well, unless anyone else has any additional ideas (I know I discounted a few of them in earlier posts) -- or we move to a reputation-model -- I think the moderation-model is what will have to be discussed most seriously by garden management in 2 months.

[Daniel Mosquin]

Originally Posted by Daniel Mosquin

I select which forums have posts that count toward post totals (it's an on/off switch). The Test Bed, and those forums that have gone into the no-new-thread, no-reply archives do not count. I think I'll do the same for Forum Announcements and Forum How-Tos, too.

Ah, just did it, and my post count declined from 6519 to 5862.

[redster]

Originally Posted by Futura

You provided some great information on ths forum over the years and elected to delete it?

I do not understand that kind of behaviour.

It's like the kid who didn't like the rules of the game and picked up his ball and ran home crying ruining the fun for everyone.

yea it sounds just like that.


well if daniel agrees with deleting millets posts i guess theres nothing more to say then. make your job easier though just delete the entire citrus forum, he posted to just about every thread. hell delete them all, archives take up hard drive and bandwidth, no sense wasting money on that either.

guess ill be back in 2 months when yall figure out what you doing...

red

[Daniel Mosquin]

Originally Posted by redster

well if daniel agrees with deleting millets posts i guess theres nothing more to say then.

I didn't say I agree with it.

I find it a waste of my time and disrespectful of other posters.

Everything would be easier, sure, if the garden did a "rights grab" and owned your posts wholly for UBC's purposes. I'm not really interested in owning anyone's thoughts or images (this has been discussed several times before on the forums). Perhaps the best way of thinking about it is that they are on "permanent loan" -- and that still gives the owner a (limited?) right to revoke. However, when it is blended with other's thoughts or images to form something entirely new, the whole issue gets messy, as there is a need to balance the "loans" made by others with the individual's "right to revoke". So, I muddle through the best I can.

[Katalina25]

Close the thread, leave it as a archive Daniel.

Unless anyone of you is prepared to help Daniel run these forums for nothing then really you can't say very much about the restructure, the lost posts count, even millet's posts going. Actually Millet reduced some of his own if I remember right.

Be positive about the future.

Bye Red.

[togata57]

Daniel---in re. your citations of my statements in your post #335:

Thanks for taking a moment of your scarce and valuable time to clarify your job description. Pardon my ignorance! I had thought that your employment encompassed areas other than post-culling.

Also, do so appreciate the sarcastic criticism of my logic. True, I was theorizing in advance of possessing full information---but now that you have supplied this, all is made clear. Your job consists of post-culling; therefore, you spend your time in this activity. Does this statement meet your standard for logic?

Here's some more:

Since the opportunities for members to participate in this Forum have been so reduced, your budget problems will soon solve themselves. New posts will slow to a trickle---soon you will be all caught up with the 'curating' of them. But---oh, my---when there are no more---gosh, Daniel! Then YOU will be out of a job!

[Katalina25]

But---oh, my---when there are no more---gosh, Daniel! Then YOU will be out of a job!

....OMG...If this forum closes where will you get answers to the questions for over there?

Hhaahahaha!

[redster]

fair enough daniel, do what you must then.

i never said i was leaving, just taking a long break till things calm down and they figure out the best way to go. if they ever ready to let us be moderators, im fully ready to do that if it keeps all those old forums open. i dont have a whole lot of time but i can give and hour or so a night and more on the weekends to help out. one or two mods per forum shouldnt be that big of a deal. only rights we get are to delete/move posts, and refer to daniel for banning or other more private matters. so yea, give me the mod job, ill take the veggie forum i guess, millet can have the citrus forum and all will be well. im doubtful itll ever happen though.


red

[Daniel Mosquin]

Millet has kindly rescinded his request to have his remaining posts deleted.

[redster]

well that is greatly appreciated, thank you millet.


red

[janetdoyle]

I hope Millet stays with us and continues to post -- I thought the posts added a sharpness and character! There must be plenty of hobby citrus growers needing advice here in the PNW. And a bit of hockey talk [as deleted above] surely ok too. Wish everyone would stop needling, but maybe it's just in fun...

[togata57]

Noticed that we no longer have the feature on our profiles which shows us how many visits we have received, and from whom they were. Undoubtedly, this saves untold miles of space and time. Money, too.

[leaf kotasek]

thank you, millet! i appreciate that; your posts are pretty informative.

...uh, sorry for the light-hearted post at the top of the page about ginger and lemongrass; i got carried away by hbl's rad enthusiasm. i apologize if i annoyed anyone. :D

[M. D. Vaden]

Good decision.

The workload can be insurmountable after a while. And honestly, forums don't bring much revenue unless you find sponsors, so your choice sounds sensible. Its not a coincidence that I don't have a forum. I tried one for just a few months and bailed out before it absorbed more of my time.

Glad that you had Rainy Side Gardeners on your recommended forums lists. That's a lightly used, but top-notch Pacific NW forum.

Thanks Daniel ...

: - )

[The Hollyberry Lady]

Posted by Daniel:

I've reversed the infraction that wasn't given by me, as I had intended to remove the infraction system (due to losing other forum members for giving out minor infractions). That's not to say your behaviour wasn't out-of-line, though.

This thread was 'out of line' long before I posted my plant pictures, however I did apologize and even edited them out.

Notice since posters caught wind that infraction points are being issued, all the insults and negative bantering back and forth here have stopped?!! The wonders never cease.

I wished long ago that you might have stepped in as leader of this site and brought a bit more integrity and respect into this thread. Yet I was centered out with an infraction point for trying to change the condescending and rude tone of things here.

Although I do appreciate the point being retracted, as it should not have been given to me in the first place, I am not too happy about being called 'out of line' and feel you should be referring to a number of people as being 'out of line' here, and not just me. I was merely trying to get the insults and rudeness to stop, since you weren't doing anything about it. I meant no disrespect to your thread, Daniel.

Furthermore, you say that you issued the infraction point to me, but then why did I receive it from 'wcutler'? Is 'wcutler' now a moderator?

Also...

I'm really not enjoying this site much anymore. A lot of my threads are closed. I can't even post my numerous plant pics anymore, nor discuss what I'm growing! I know things could change in the future, but in the meantime it really isn't as enjoyable as it once was.

I will still help out here and offer plant advice of course, but I won't be logged on nearly half as much as I was before. Too bad, because this used to be a really terrific site. It was always my most favorite.

: (

[Daniel Mosquin]

Originally Posted by The Hollyberry Lady

Notice since posters caught wind that infraction points are being issued

February 27 update: http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/fo...ad.php?t=57828

Originally Posted by The Hollyberry Lady

Furthermore, you say that you issued the infraction point to me

Originally Posted by Daniel Mosquin

I've reversed the infraction that wasn't given by me

Originally Posted by The Hollyberry Lady

Is 'wcutler' now a moderator?

Since March 2008, as she uses these forums to support the Vancouver Cherry Blossom Festival.

[The Hollyberry Lady]

I would never have had a problem with someone telling me nicely and respectfully that I was doing something wrong, but no one ever told me anything in a pm, and all of a sudden after being a long-term contributing member here, I was being blasted with all these infraction points and weird warnings! Things could have been resolved a lot sooner, if it was handled in a more sensitive and caring manner.

As for this...

Perhaps with a bit better wording from the default infraction private messages (so they don't seem like such a hammer), it should be revived

You just have no idea what it's like to be on the receiving end of one of your infraction points, Daniel. I'm not a bit surprised that some members left for good, likely feeling as insulted and unappreciated as I did.

I don't think it's so much that people are abusing freedoms, I think it's more that the rules were so unclear here for so long, that some people honestly didn't know what was expected. They should not have been penalized for this however, but given a chance to understand the new 'forum charter' and make some changes.

Your infraction point system really takes away people's dignity. The wording when you receive one, just drains the blood from your face! It's awful and I hope no other members have to experience it - ever.

Anyway, thanks for the link, and G'night.

[Daniel Mosquin]

It was first the community that tried to help steer you toward the "unwritten" rules of the forum very early on.

You joined Nov. 1, 2008.

The first reported post about you from Member 1 occurred on Nov. 19, 2008, in which members acted courteously by telling you about not reviving 3.5 year old threads: this thread.

The second reported post about you from Member 1 occurred on Nov. 19. 2008, in which you insulted forum members in this thread.

I removed the post with the insults with the reason,

Please don't insult people on these forums.

The third reported post about you from Member 2 occurred on August 2, 2009, in this thread. I was absent at the time, and I don't know how Eric handled it.

The fourth reported post about you from Member 3 occurred on August 6, 2009, in what I believe was an old thread that you revived without adding any additional information. I was absent at the time, and I don't know how Eric handled it. Somewhere along the way I deleted the thread as out of date.

The fifth reported post about you from Member 3 occurred on August 15, 2009, in this thread:

I removed the post with the reason,

Please make replies directly relevant to the question being asked. The Chat area is appropriate for general welcomes.

I would contend that even though private messages weren't sent, you were given a fair amount of courtesy -- as much as anyone else. I'm not going to search the various "edited by" messages found throughout the forums giving guidance to you on what's acceptable and what's not.

I should also point out that there was a pattern: acknowledgment of "unwritten rule" by you when edits were made and then eventually ignoring that "unwritten rule" -- the specifics of more than one reported post being sent in.

***

Then we get into the series of conflicts with other members.

Arguments in a thread with Member 4, Oct. 9, 2009.
Arguments in a thread with Member 5, Oct. 11, 2009.
Arguments in a thread with Member 6, Oct. 11, 2009.

At this point, I stepped in with this private message:

Change of status

Hi Hollyberry Lady,

I've decided to change your member status to Contributor + Moderate. This means that I will be reviewing your posts and approving / declining them before they are posted.

Since two different people in the past two days have seen fit to criticize / insult you -- and I have also received a number of complaints in the past -- I think it is obvious that either individual posts made by you or the sum totality of your posts are creating a situation where the focus of the forums is shifting away from talking about plants to talking about the people (i.e., you) who are here on the forums. And this is undesirable to me. I want the forums to be an educational resource, not a place where I have to step in and moderate disputes.

Here's how moderation works:

1) on working weekdays when I have available time, I check the moderation queue once a day

2) I usually only have ten minutes for this -- too many posts to moderate and I may ignore it

3) for posts that add to the educational value to the forums (i.e., provide information that helps another with a problem), approval is certain

4) for posts that are chit-chat, if they are on-topic (i.e., in the Conversation & Chat forum) or provide a community-building value, approval is likely

5) for posts that have little educational / community-building value or could be handled better by private messaging, approval is on a case-by-case basis.

Let's see how this works for a couple weeks and we'll re-evaluate the situation then.

After the institution of the infraction system and the passing of 8 days, the moderation status was removed.

In the meantime and after this, the charter (the rules and guidelines) was expanded to add the various unwritten rules.

Of the 8 warnings/infractions given to forum members, you had received 3.

2 were warnings, given because the "unwritten rules" of ignoring someone else's copyright (unwritten at the time, though given as an "editing reason" whenever a post was edited by me prior to that throughout the forums) and the second for using the "report post" feature inappropriately (to mainly react to the private message sent re: moderation instead of replying to the private message).

1 was an infraction point -- of which anyone would have needed 3 of these (eventually-expiring) points at the same time -- to go back to a moderation usergroup. This was essentially for abusing my time with reiterating and restating arguments that had already been dealt with through our series of a dozen private messages (a pattern again in evidence in this thread).

In other words: warning = read it, acknowledge it, and don't do that again. Not a big deal to most people, one would think. Infraction points a bigger deal for a short period of time, but not an obstacle to participation on the forums.

***

Two more reported posts were eventually, received:

One from Member 7 on Feb. 6, 2010 about spammy postings made by you in this thread. Nothing was done by me about this as I disagreed with the reporter.

One from Member 3 on Feb. 27, 2010 about your behaviour at the time in this thread, which led to an infraction point being given by wcutler and reversed by me -- though it would have been warranted had I wanted to continue to use the infraction system, as you knew the rules.

***

To conclude, perhaps there could have been more communication. However, no one in the history of these forums has ever been a more contentious figure. All communities have to have a level of tolerance for people's personal quirks, but it is not infinite tolerance. Everyone has been more than patient hoping you would understand how these forums were intended to be different than other forums on the web -- because you certainly had some positive qualities -- but, I don't see that ever happening now.

I think it is time you moved on, and I'll help that along.