Unknown variety

Discussion in 'Maples' started by webwolf, Oct 18, 2004.

  1. webwolf

    webwolf Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi,
    I bought this *** Fili (picure attached) a few years ago. It was cheaper than the others, because it had no label and looked a bit run down. I could not find a graft mark, so I thought it might be the odd one grown from seed. The unusual thing was that there were much larger leafs developing as well, which did not look so well, so I pinched them out.
    When I took the scions for grafting that year, I ended up with one fili and one larger leaf ( looks a bit like 'Shaina') plant
    So, my question is: Did I produced a better cultivar ( or two ) of the motherplant and also of course: Can anyone identify the cultivar?
    regards
    Webwolf from Downunder
     

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  2. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    *** Fili ?

    Webwolf, what do you mean by the term "*** Fili "? Is that some kind of oriental pony?
    What you have is an Acer palmatum linearilobum. It looks like Acer palmatum linearilobum 'Red Pygmy'. Don't pinch out those larger leaves. It is not reverting. Those are leaves that develop on immature wood. As the plant ages and the newer stems mature the leaves produced on those more mature stems will be finer, more linear. Also, and I don't really give a huge rats rear-end but I have found that a large percentage of people reading this forum will be offended to some degree by a reference to anything Japanese as "***". Eventually they will let you know. I think that it reflects a lazy and cavalier attitude towards speech and communication that has become far too popular here in the US for the past four years or so. It's a matter of respect towards the Japanese people and their marvelous culture, a big part of which, for me, is the wonderful wealth of their indigenous plant material. As for you or anyone else using the term "***", I believe in 1st amendment rights (see U.S. Constitution). Here in the US, for my purpose in this dialog, it means free speech. Of course, those offended by the term may come back and ridicule you for using the term and that is okay, because I believe in free speech. As for the mechanics involved in uttering the term "***", many people think that since it is a solitary syllable that it is easier and more expedient to use than "Japanese". I beg to differ. I find the term "Japanese" much more lyrical and like the tree itself, beautiful. It is therefore musical and seems to flow from the lips. When we use the term in describing or discussing trees. we use it as an adjective and it is usually followed by a word such as maple. The transition between the two seems much smoother when saying "Japanese". Try it. Say it,..."Japanese Maple"... When the term "***" is used the flow of words is more like dropping a gear in a 49' International Harvester going up a hill. That's a metefer. You know what a metefer is, don't ya?
     
  3. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Let's keep the conversation about plants. I think we all know where this might go, and it's not necessary. I question whether an Australian's brevity is similar in origin to any purported tendency for brevity on the part of someone in the US, but this really isn't the place for it.
     
  4. webwolf

    webwolf Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi,
    Sorry to offend you. I should have written ***.Fili. , which abreviates for Japanese Filigran to shorten a word like you did with 'don't' instead of 'do not'.
    Thank you for your plant identification.
    Webwolf from Downunder
     
  5. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    No offense

    I wasn't offended, I was merely trying to help you in communicating with people of other cultures who might find the term "***" offensive.
    Into this post, I will add just another statement in this regard. I don't know why it's not the place for it. We are talking plants and without people we wouldn't be doing so. We're discussing plants in relationship with people. We are sharing principals...communicating both scientific and cultural ideas. How people integrate plants into their cultures and how people share and intertwine principals of different cultures, like Bonsai or Japanese Maples into their own . How are we doing this? Primarily with words and words represent ideas, concepts and things. I realize that certain words are not offensive to some people but they can be to others. I think that the term "***" is commonly used Downunder and it is not necessarily considered a slur. Here in the US it is still used infrequently and I don't think that most people who use the term "***" are using it derisively but I know that people in some cultures, most notably Japanese are offended by it's use. People all over the world log on to this site from one or more of the internets.
    As for 'Filli" or "Filligran", I think that "Filligran" is German and/or Norwegian for "Filligree"
    Filigree
    (a.) Relating to, composed of, or resembling, work in filigree; as, a filigree basket. Hence: Fanciful; unsubstantial; merely decorative.
    (n.) Ornamental work, formerly with grains or breads, but now composed of fine wire and used chiefly in decorating gold and silver to which the wire is soldered, being arranged in designs frequently of a delicate and intricate arabesque pattern.
    Now back to trees, tell me about the grafting techniques that you personally employ Downunder. Nice linearilobum (pictured above), by the way. At first I thought it may be, and it very well maybe Acer palmatum linearilobum 'Aekan le's' (see images).
     

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  6. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Fili is short for Filifera which brings to mind Acer
    Palmatum 'Filifera purpurea'. Long before there
    was Red Spider (a select form of Atrolineare), Red
    Pygmy and others in the nursery trade from the 60's
    to the early 80's, all red forms of Linearilobum were
    called Filifera, even to some extent in Japan. Today,
    several red and green deeply divided Maples are still
    called Lace Leaf Maples in the nursery trade.

    We always felt that Filifera purpurea and Atrolineare
    were not the same plant. The growth habits are not
    quite the same and the coloring in the Spring were
    not the same either, neither was the bark color.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2004
  7. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I have a large Koto no ito and love the interplay of the thread like leaves with the larger leaves on new wood. Let the tree take its form and enjoy it. I also agree with the sentiments expressed rather eloquently by Elmore. These trees were developed by people, originally persons of a certain place and culture with an amazingly rich heritage, and therefore germaine to this list. I know language use varies from one place to another, but respect is an increasing global necessity, and we can all learn from each other here. I certainly want to myself.
     
  8. webwolf

    webwolf Active Member 10 Years

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    Red pygmy or Aekan le's

    Hi,
    How can I find out if my maple is either of the above. What is the difference between them. I will attach afew more pictures.
    regards
    webwolf from Downunder
     

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  9. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Maple ID

    You could get the book "Japanese Maples" by J. D. Vertrees/Third Edition Revised & Expanded by Peter Gregory and compare descriptions, measurements etc. of 'Atrolineare', 'Red Pygmy', 'Villa Taranto' and 'Scolopendrifolium rubrum', making an identification based on information from the book. You will not find 'Aekan le's' in the book but it is similar to 'Red Pygmy' with darker, purple/red, leaves and stems and a more horizontal growth habit. It is reported to even have dark purple/black bark. Looking at the images that you provided I would say that it is an 'Atrolineare' also known by everyone else but Mr. Shep, lol, as 'Filifera Purpurea'. It's known by many different names but I think 'Atrolineare' is the most recognized cultivar epithet. Your leaves seem to have a prominent, lighter colored, perhaps green, mid-rib and a narrow, upright growth habit. All indicative of Acer palmatum linearilobum 'Atrolineare'. 'Red Pygmy' and the others mentioned have a more rounded, shrublike growth habit. I think Jim was right on it.
     
  10. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Just a quick note:

    Filifera purpurea was around long before the Atrolineare
    name was used. Mr. Vertrees at first considered the
    two cultivars to be different and then later lumped them
    together. In Oregon in the mid to late 80's when
    Atrolineare was hot, before there were any real numbers
    of Red Pygmys for sale, Monrovia stood by its guns and
    kept the Filifera purpurea labels on their plants. Monrovia
    did indeed have the true form of Filifera purpurea and from
    what I understand still has it but there are not many plants
    of it at this time. In the nursery trade Filifera purpurea was
    real hot back in the middle 70's up to the mid 80's. More
    of them were sold in retail nurseries per capita than the Lace
    Leafs (Burgundy Lace) were.

    Don's form of Filifera purpurea came in from Japan in the
    60's. He later got an Atrolineare to see for himself if the
    two plants were the same. I will say that I got quizzed a
    bunch on those two Maples but I picked up on a few things
    that others may not have noticed. One thing is the palmate
    leaves and I'll let you guys figure out which one does that
    more often with some of the newest growth. I'll give you
    a hint, that Red Spider does it also. You are right Elmore,
    I've already named this one. Now, it is up to you guys to
    confirm or deny.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2004
  11. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Riddle Me This Batman

    Okay mr.shep, I'll play. If what you say is correct, as far as 'Atrolineare' and 'Filifera purpureum' being two separate and distinct cultivars, contrary to the few texts I have at my disposal, I will venture to say that I was correct in my last response and that brother wolf has 'Atrolineare'. I do know that just because something is in print does not necessarily make it true and factual. Take what a well known author says about Ginkgo biloba 'Chase Manhattan' I won't mention his name but in his ever popular and quite informative book, he states that by the time he is 100 years old his 'Chase Manhattan' will be about 3' tall. I tracked down the original grower of this cultivar and he told me that it will get 20' to 25' tall. I take that to mean that the original is now that height.
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Elmore:

    Not all of the information in the books is supposed to
    be right. All the authors can do is write what they feel
    is correct based on personal or first hand knowledge
    and from what others have told them.

    You know nothing of why the Vertress Maple book
    was so important. For years there were no one to
    answer people's questions on Japanese Maples. No
    one in the nursery trade aside from a few individuals
    that were wholesale growers, for the most part, knew
    much. The nurseries had a few Maples but when people
    asked questions they were either told a series of white
    lies or the nursery had to ask Monrovia. Think I am
    kidding? What happens if Monrovia did not know the
    answer? Let me remind you that the Bible for Garden
    books here stated back in the early 60's that we could
    not grow Japanese Maples here, even though some of
    the contributors knew Don. It was perfectly okay to tell
    people that the Maples could not grow here due to our
    heat and occasional real cold yet when they wanted
    Maples who did they come to, to buy them? One hand
    says one thing and the other hand does another! We've
    lived with ongoing paradoxes for a long while here.
    Mr. Vertrees book served to fill a void that many
    people, including myself, needed and I do mean
    needed to have as our main reference as I bought
    my Filifera purpurea while I was in high school
    and had no one to talk to about how to grow it.
    At that time in the late 60's we bought the Maple
    because we liked it but we were on our own when
    it came to growing it. What Mr. Vertrees did for all
    of us was one of the most substantial and informative
    events (certain people knew that it would be and
    did not hesitate to collaborate and contribute) that
    could have been imagined at the time. I remember
    going to a college library and viewing the first edition
    book many times before I met Don a few years later
    and bought my first specialty Maple from him.

    Dealing with Maples I seldom look at the books as I feel
    comfortable in remembering some of the stuff I learned,
    sometimes the hard way. I balked at a lot of stuff that I
    was told and read but I also knew that what we learned
    years ago had the ability to change in the future. Growing
    plants side by side gives us a different perspective on
    Maples. Yes, we do sometimes knit-pick to tell Maples
    apart and we can and have overlooked certain features to
    lump certain Maples together. When I got into specialty
    plants I was a lumper also but after getting my feet wet I
    became a separator. There are lots of forms of Maples not
    described in our books and I no longer feel compelled to
    talk about them much. Seeing the Maples says a lot but if
    we cannot see, read about or touch a particular Maple few
    people today will believe it exists or once did exist. I was
    fortunate to see most of the Maples I've mentioned in other
    posts and with some of them I have some old photos of
    them on hand to back me up.

    As in the case of Atrolineare versus Filifera purpurea there
    is a marked difference in the coloring of the leaves, one
    being a green veined red which can and usually does turn a
    bronze red and the other is more of a purple red that keeps
    its color better throughout the growing season. It is not my
    fault that the old industry standard is the better plant in this
    case. Look at the bark and tell me if you see any white
    striations? What color is the bark? Filifera purpurea has
    a reddish cast to its bark, you do not see that in the pics do
    you? The shape of the leaves can be vastly different in that
    it is very rare for a Filifera purpurea to throw out a palmate
    shaped juvenile leaf which Red Spider (a seedling raised by
    Don and given to two guys in Oregon to grow and propagate)
    and Atrolineare are known to do. We may get an oddball,
    narrow shaped vigorous leaf every now and then which is
    quite common for Red Pygmy, Villa Taranto and others to
    yield when they are young and vigorous but the leaves stay
    truer to form than an Atrolineare will.

    I am not playing around. No one likes my opinion on Maples,
    yet I am the guy many of you will come to for help in a pinch.
    I do not mind helping, just do not make me regret it is what
    I am saying to myself.

    Yes, this one is Atrolineare!

    Jim
     
  13. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Don...?

    Are Don and Mr. Vertrees the same person? I'm glad to be learning from these discussions. Thanks.
     
  14. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Vertrees

    Jim, I don't take Vertrees books for granted. I have two of them. I agree, what would I have without them. Sunset Western Gardens?
    jacquot, J. D. Vertrees and Don Kleim were two separate individuals. Jim, tell jacquot about Don Kleim. I'd like to hear more about him also. The lives and histories of pioneering growers is of great interest.
     
  15. webwolf

    webwolf Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi,answer to Mr. Sheps reply
    Like on the picture above. The bark is grey on older, green on younger wood. No striations ( if you mean grooves ). The leafs are brownish red with green veins turning greener in summer. Autumn colour is non existend ( to hot ), leafs just shrivel and dry off.
    Wolfgang
    PS: I really enjoy that news group
     
  16. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Great discussion-the subtle differences in my linearlobum varieties often leave me stumped and more so than any of the other varieties, the color and leaf variation caused by environmental factors seem amplified.

    I thought I might throw in a few pictures of trees from Oregon, as Jim often mentions them. I post the pictures of Atrolineare with some certainty as it comes from Forest Farms, but the said Red Pygmy is a fun find from a growers market, although it did have the growers label attached, the seller had it for a couple seasons.

    I leave the Atrolineare to this post and the Red Pygmy to another post as not to have to differentiate the photos.

    In the photos below, Atrolineare is pictured in fall color with some green veining or interior color. The bark on this tree is color a reddish hue. It currently exhibits an upright habit in contrast to my Red Pygmy. The leaves of this tree have been relatively uniform, but its condition has been relatively stable and growth rate slow.
     

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  17. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    My Red Pygmy from market has been through great trials bordering on death the last year. This year the leaf lobes were much thicker and more palmate. While the tree did have nice narrow lobed red leaves when I purchesed it, the expression of palmate leaves and thicker lobes seemed a response to heavy environmental stress in 2003.

    The tree has held up well in full sun, but exhibited a yellow coloration most of the summer. It as green to yellowish bark and a spreading habit. I hope to see a return of the typical leaf and more red color next year. It is just now starting to show some red color that I suspect will appear more orange.

    I had many trees make it through my tree disaster of 2003, but this tree and my Villa Taranto, both showed strong variations in this years gowth. The color was atypical as was the leaf shape. It will be exiciting to watch the recovery as both are now doing well.

    regards,
    Michael
     

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  18. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Jacquot:

    I've written a lot on Mr. Don Kleim in many of my
    posts. He was my mentor in Japanese Maples and
    a variety of other nursery plants. He was very much
    a dear friend and was like a second father to me.

    Start with this thread I started below.

    http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=2519

    Don's impact on Japanese Maples in the US is second
    to none all things considered. Several parts of the
    Japanese Maple book written by Mr. Vertrees were
    contributions from Don. Almost all of the Trident
    Maple section of the book was originally written by
    Don, edited by Mr. Vertrees and then used as the
    basis for the book manuscript. I knew Mr. Vertrees
    also and in some ways I was the guy in their later
    years that passed notes back and forth after a long
    impasse in their talking to one another. I know what
    caused the rift between them and that is best left with
    me but I will say that afterwards they did patch things
    up but their passing came rather quickly for both of
    them to pursue a new beginning.

    Both men essentially wanted to promote Maples in
    their own way. They knew most of the same people
    affiliated with Maples here in the US, Europe and in
    particular, in Japan. Don was the go-getter in that
    when he wanted to grow a plant he figured out a way
    to get it here. It did not matter if it was entirely legal
    or not, he got the plant here. One of the most talked
    about stories about Don, among select friends, was
    how he got the first Pinus thunbergiana 'Nana' into
    the US. He paid the pilot of the Boeing 707 to fly it
    in on his lap just to bypass Customs. Don got his Pine
    and then later brought in Pinus thunbergiana 'Nana
    Aurea'. I have both forms as a tribute to him. Anyone
    else that has those true forms of kuromatsu can thank
    Don Kleim and what did they have to do to own one?
    Just buy it from Don, he already did all of the hard part!

    There are a lot of Maples, mainly Japanese Maples
    but several Tridents and Full Moon Maples also that
    can be directly attributed to him having them brought
    into the US from Japan into Canada and then into
    Oregon and later California. How did many of the
    East Coast nurserymen get their Japanese Maples?
    They got many of them from Don starting in the late
    50's. There were a few common friends of both men
    that I also knew and I know what they told me about
    who did what for Maples. Both men went way beyond
    what anyone else has ever done for Maples in the US.

    There were other men of major impact also and they
    were Koichiro Wada and Jiro Kobayashi in Japan as
    well as William Goddard in British Columbia. Without
    all of them involved with Mr. Vertrees and Don Kleim
    we might still be talking about only a handful of
    Japanese Maples today. Even people in Europe and
    in Australia and New Zealand owe a great debt of
    gratitude to those 5 men. The problem I have is that
    people have forgotten who the pioneers were and that
    is okay but when we talk Seriyu the question is,
    would we have it now if Don had not imported it into
    the US in1972 from Jiro Kobayashi? Many people
    elsewhere were able to purchase Maples from the
    US in which many of those Maples originally were
    imported in by Don Kleim.

    I've told about the trading of Maples for Conifers from
    the East Coast in a thread and some of the American
    pioneers for Conifers were some of those people. Don
    helped open the door or opened it further for several of
    them to get Conifers from Japan of which some of them
    became rather well known in their own right in the
    Conifer world for their lifelong work with Pines, to
    name just one Conifer but their impact on Pines alone
    was beyond substantial. It used to tickle me to know
    where my Pinus pumila 'Chlorocarpa' came from and
    knowing the story as to how Don got the original Pine
    from Sir Harold Hillier.

    When I first met Don Kleim he had over 300 varieties
    of Japanese Maples. That numbered increased
    considerably in the next 14 years as his subordinate
    was, in part, responsible for seeing the newer Maples
    elsewhere and bringing them back into the nursery if
    he felt they were worth growing and monitoring further.
    On Don's annual trek to Oregon to visit his brother in
    law in Corvallis whom was the Head of the Forestry
    Department at Oregon St. University for many years
    and was a very close friend of Mr. Vertrees, Don
    would go around and see some of his old nursery
    friends and see what they had new and also brought
    in Maples and other plants back into the nursery
    and/or made deals to have plants delivered to them
    and have someone I know bring the plants back for
    the nursery in trade. It was all quite an eventful 14
    years to say the least and I miss it greatly.

    Jim
     
  19. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Thank you very much. I am very glad to know more about the persons, their work and dedication, that have made for these beautiful plants being available to people like me. It is too easy to just take the life work of people like this for granted. We obviously owe a tremendous debt to all of them. I'm grateful to know more about the history of Japanese maples coming to the US and people involved, and be able to have them in mind, as I enjoy my family of trees here on the east coast. I know this is hardly adequate as a response, this is a big subject and ongoing, but I thank you for this window into a certain crucial and important time in that history.
    David
     

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