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  #1  
Old January 2nd, 2009, 01:30 PM
Gardenlover Gardenlover is offline
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How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

I am planting grapes in my backyard in the spring. I have about 1 foot depth of good soil and then the subsoil begins to slowly show with sandiness and yellowish in colour. I am aware this soil is not good for optimum results. My neighbour has not had great success with his grape vines due to the same fact. He told me his soil is not that good. He has about 6 inches of good organic soil then subsoil begins to show yelowish and sandy.

I am going to ammend my soil to maximum 4 feet in depth...in the spring to increase better results and success with the grapes.
Basically I will keep the good soil I have now by putting it to the side and then dig out the poor subsoil and discard it. Going down to 4 feet in depth. Then will add loam, manure e.t.c.
I feel this is just, anyone else share any views on this?
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  #2  
Old January 2nd, 2009, 02:02 PM
Ron B Ron B is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

I wouldn't. Some vineyards in my state are located in deserts. Sandiness shouldn't be a problem. Try to find out why the neighbor's plantings have been unsatisfactory. It may have nothing to do with the soil. Or it may be something like a deficiency of one or two nutrients that grapes happen to need fairly substantial levels of. Liberally amending and replacing the existing soil might not correct these particular deficiencies.

You don't describe what constitutes the neighbor's lack of success. Poor growth? Failure to bear? He could have locally unsuitable varieties, or one or two of a dozen other common problems. You need to find out what, exactly you are dealing with and address that specifically. Maybe the provincial agricultural ministry can help with this - perhaps offering soil testing, for instance.
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 05:01 PM
Durgan Durgan is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardenlover View Post
I am going to ammend my soil to maximum 4 feet in depth...in the spring to increase better results and success with the grapes.
Basically I will keep the good soil I have now by putting it to the side and then dig out the poor subsoil and discard it. Going down to 4 feet in depth. Then will add loam, manure e.t.c.
I feel this is just, anyone else share any views on this?
Few plants ever need four feet of soil. Roots spread on grapes (3 by 4) feet but are not over a foot deep. Here is my grape growing experience in the same area as you.
http://www.durgan.org/ShortURL/?OBQOT Summary: Grape Growing Experience
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Durgan. Brantford, ON Canada Zone 5B
http://durgan.org/2011/ Garden Journal 2011
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  #4  
Old January 2nd, 2009, 09:54 PM
Gardenlover Gardenlover is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

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Originally Posted by Ron B View Post
I wouldn't. Some vineyards in my state are located in deserts. Sandiness shouldn't be a problem. Try to find out why the neighbor's plantings have been unsatisfactory. It may have nothing to do with the soil. Or it may be something like a deficiency of one or two nutrients that grapes happen to need fairly substantial levels of. Liberally amending and replacing the existing soil might not correct these particular deficiencies.

You don't describe what constitutes the neighbor's lack of success. Poor growth? Failure to bear? He could have locally unsuitable varieties, or one or two of a dozen other common problems. You need to find out what, exactly you are dealing with and address that specifically. Maybe the provincial agricultural ministry can help with this - perhaps offering soil testing, for instance.
I hear you, this soil I'm talking about looks like sand and is yellow. It is not loamy in texture. The better part of it looks like very fine gravel. The neighbour has equal amount of sunlight in his yard (if not more by an 1 hour per day) but his tomatoes and other vegetables are not impressive at all and lack growth and productivity.

His grape vine is not bad...don't get me wrong. He got his grape cutting off a neigbour so the variety is not out of the growing zone. But the growth on it is not impresive. It is 10 years old and the trunk should be 2.5 times thicker than it is now and not enough shoot growth very little grapes. He has this (substandard) soil also(in my opinion.) He even admits his soil is no good in comparison to mine.

I have been lucky because I have added tons of organic matter into my soil, manure, peat moss, loam and I have better productivity.
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  #5  
Old January 2nd, 2009, 09:56 PM
Gardenlover Gardenlover is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durgan View Post
Few plants ever need four feet of soil. Roots spread on grapes (3 by 4) feet but are not over a foot deep. Here is my grape growing experience in the same area as you.
http://www.durgan.org/ShortURL/?OBQOT Summary: Grape Growing Experience

Good stuff Durgan. Try Swenson Red and Reliance varieties. They are excellent eating grapes. Grapes only go down about a foot deep? I read info on the web saying to amend your soil to 3 feet in depth for grapevine productivity.
that is o.k. then.
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  #6  
Old January 3rd, 2009, 01:15 PM
Millet Millet is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Ron is correct, I must agree with him. I would not dig out your "bad" earth and add all those amendments. Ground that is to rich is not good for grapes. I have two acres of grape vines. When I originally planted them I used a backhoe and dug trenches 4-ft deep, and then refilled the trench using the same soil. I then planted the vines. I do not know what's wrong with Dugan's vines, but grapes MOST CERTAINLY are a DEEP ROOTED plants, much, much deeper than one foot, sending their roots 6 feet or more into the soil. Your grapes will need a good draining soil. Soil with good drainage sends moisture down to the deepest roots, washes the soil free of injurious salt accumulations, drains away rainfall so that it doesn't pond and deprive the surface roots of oxygen, and carries oxygen deep to the roots. Soils rich in humus or added amendments such as manure and other nutrients are often too high in nitrogen for grapes, creating rank, weak growth that's susceptible to pests and diseases. Very sandy soils lose moisture quickly, and are also frost prone, due to their low heat capacity and thermal conductivity. They warm up too quickly on sunny days in late winter, encouraging buds to push, but then cool off fast at night, promoting freezing of tender new tissue.

Because of the deep rooting habit of grapes, the soil has to be DEEPER than about 30 inches. Be sure that there is no bed rock, hardpan, or impenetrable layer within 30 inches of the surface. For grapes, up to a depth of 70 inches, the deeper the soil, the better it is for the vines. It doesn't seem to improve the grapes if the soil is deeper than 70 inches, meaning that's about the limit off their root length. The matter of drainage is SUPREMELY important to your eventual success. New York State grape scientists go so far as to say that "the site characteristics, rainfall, soil nutrients, organic matter, high lime, soil texture, and pH are MINOR compared with soil depth, and temperature. Soil depth also means soil's ability to drain water. Temperature means winter minimums and length of the growing season. Grapes do not like wet feet. My recommendation is dig a deep trench or hole and refill using the same soil, than plant you vines.

The Great Vine at Hampton Court Palace in England, which was planted in 1768 still bears an annual crop of fruit. Key to its survival is the fact that grapevines are so extraordinarily self reliant. To my knowledge the vine has never been given much more than earth, water and sun. Be certain you select the proper varieties for the zone you are going to grow them in. Good luck. - Millet

Last edited by Millet; January 3rd, 2009 at 01:46 PM.
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  #7  
Old January 3rd, 2009, 06:06 PM
Gardenlover Gardenlover is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Millet View Post
Ron is correct, I must agree with him. I would not dig out your "bad" earth and add all those amendments. Ground that is to rich is not good for grapes. I have two acres of grape vines. When I originally planted them I used a backhoe and dug trenches 4-ft deep, and then refilled the trench using the same soil. I then planted the vines. I do not know what's wrong with Dugan's vines, but grapes MOST CERTAINLY are a DEEP ROOTED plants, much, much deeper than one foot, sending their roots 6 feet or more into the soil. Your grapes will need a good draining soil. Soil with good drainage sends moisture down to the deepest roots, washes the soil free of injurious salt accumulations, drains away rainfall so that it doesn't pond and deprive the surface roots of oxygen, and carries oxygen deep to the roots. Soils rich in humus or added amendments such as manure and other nutrients are often too high in nitrogen for grapes, creating rank, weak growth that's susceptible to pests and diseases. Very sandy soils lose moisture quickly, and are also frost prone, due to their low heat capacity and thermal conductivity. They warm up too quickly on sunny days in late winter, encouraging buds to push, but then cool off fast at night, promoting freezing of tender new tissue.

Because of the deep rooting habit of grapes, the soil has to be DEEPER than about 30 inches. Be sure that there is no bed rock, hardpan, or impenetrable layer within 30 inches of the surface. For grapes, up to a depth of 70 inches, the deeper the soil, the better it is for the vines. It doesn't seem to improve the grapes if the soil is deeper than 70 inches, meaning that's about the limit off their root length. The matter of drainage is SUPREMELY important to your eventual success. New York State grape scientists go so far as to say that "the site characteristics, rainfall, soil nutrients, organic matter, high lime, soil texture, and pH are MINOR compared with soil depth, and temperature. Soil depth also means soil's ability to drain water. Temperature means winter minimums and length of the growing season. Grapes do not like wet feet. My recommendation is dig a deep trench or hole and refill using the same soil, than plant you vines.

The Great Vine at Hampton Court Palace in England, which was planted in 1768 still bears an annual crop of fruit. Key to its survival is the fact that grapevines are so extraordinarily self reliant. To my knowledge the vine has never been given much more than earth, water and sun. Be certain you select the proper varieties for the zone you are going to grow them in. Good luck. - Millet
Wow!
that is good info...thanks a lot Millet.
The soil I want to replace is very sandy. It looks no where near to farm soil. I am thinking of using less manure in the soil I will implement. I might use black soil and peat moss to a depth of 6 feet.
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  #8  
Old January 3rd, 2009, 06:09 PM
Gardenlover Gardenlover is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

B.t.w.

I am not planting live vines...I will simply push Grape cuttings of varieties I have into the soil leaving half the buds exposed. Do I have to dig them out(after they establish) and plant them in deeper holes or something?
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  #9  
Old January 3rd, 2009, 06:11 PM
Gardenlover Gardenlover is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

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Originally Posted by Gardenlover View Post
Wow!
that is good info...thanks a lot Millet.
The soil I want to replace is very sandy. It looks no where near to farm soil. I am thinking of using less manure in the soil I will implement. I might use black soil and peat moss to a depth of 6 feet.
Or maybe plain peat loam it won't be overly rich.
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  #10  
Old January 3rd, 2009, 06:38 PM
Millet Millet is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

I would not add manure. Whatever you do make sure that the back fill's texture, drainage, mineral content, and make-up is the same, from the top to the bottom. Soil layers, even less compacted layers can still cut water penetration by 80 percent. If you plant the vine correctly, your children, grand children, great grand children, great great grand children and on and on, will thank you for the delicious grapes that they will be able to eat because of you. - Millet
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  #11  
Old January 3rd, 2009, 07:12 PM
Gardenlover Gardenlover is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Millet View Post
I would not add manure. Whatever you do make sure that the back fill's texture, drainage, mineral content, and make-up is the same, from the top to the bottom. Soil layers, even less compacted layers can still cut water penetration by 80 percent. If you plant the vine correctly, your children, grand children, great grand children, great great grand children and on and on, will thank you for the delicious grapes that they will be able to eat because of you. - Millet

Thanks for the extremely helpful advice.
I WILL NOT add manure. It will be plain loam or black earth from TOP to Bottom. Grape Vines must live as long as olive trees.
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  #12  
Old January 3rd, 2009, 09:33 PM
Ron B Ron B is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Links to pdf files with modern information on amending of soils and other gardening practices can be found here.

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%2...les/index.html
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  #13  
Old January 3rd, 2009, 10:07 PM
Ottawa-Zone5 Ottawa-Zone5 is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Millet
You stated "My recommendation is dig a deep trench or hole and refill using the same soil, than plant you vines. "
What is the specific purpose of digging and refilling with no amendment? Is it losening of the soil?
Would not it go to the same state in a few year?
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  #14  
Old January 3rd, 2009, 10:12 PM
Ron B Ron B is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Yes: Probably in most instances when planting woody plants the digging of the soil to incorporate amendments improves conditions by loosening and aerating the soil rather than by involving the addition of amendments. Enhancement of the physical condition of the rooting environment for long term plants is best accomplished by installing and maintaining effective mulches.

Last edited by Ron B; January 5th, 2009 at 01:15 PM.
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  #15  
Old January 5th, 2009, 12:44 PM
Ralph Walton Ralph Walton is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

In most vineyards of multiple acres "soil amendment" of any significance is practically impossible. Certainly there are additions (based on proper soil analysis) of specific nutrients and less often micorhyza, but seldom any bulk additives for blending to modify the soil structure.

More commonly you will find developing vineyards being "ripped" and cross ripped to loosen the soil. This is usually done with the largest available caterpillar tractor with the longest available ripper(s), to a depth of 4 feet and more. I've seen one grower use a large excavator with a single tooth instead of a bucket.

Over time this will pack, but it gives the vines a window of opportunity to push roots and they will go to an incredible distance and depth in search of water and nutrients.

Ralph
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Old January 5th, 2009, 12:49 PM
Gardenlover Gardenlover is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Walton View Post
In most vineyards of multiple acres "soil amendment" of any significance is practically impossible. Certainly there are additions (based on proper soil analysis) of specific nutrients and less often micorhyza, but seldom any bulk additives for blending to modify the soil structure.

More commonly you will find developing vineyards being "ripped" and cross ripped to loosen the soil. This is usually done with the largest available caterpillar tractor with the longest available ripper(s), to a depth of 4 feet and more. I've seen one grower use a large excavator with a single tooth instead of a bucket.

Over time this will pack, but it gives the vines a window of opportunity to push roots and they will go to an incredible distance and depth in search of water and nutrients.

Ralph

I agree...
in my case it is a small section of the back yard of my home. So it is not overly difficult to bring in some fresh loam.
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  #17  
Old January 5th, 2009, 01:13 PM
Michael F Michael F is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

There's a vineyard somewhere in Portugal, where the vines have rooted down through about 20 metres of wind-blown sand dunes to reach the soil underneath. Unique in Europe in that the vines are on their own (Vitis vinifera) roots, as the feeder roots are too deep for Phylloxera to reach, so they didn't die off when Phylloxera was introduced to Europe.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 01:22 PM
Ron B Ron B is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

>in my case it is a small section of the back yard of my home. So it is not overly difficult to bring in some fresh loam<

The point about the large-scale operations not amending being that you don't have to amend to get them to grow. A good example of the discrepancy between cherished but unnecessary home garden planting practice and commercial production practices is all the different things hobbyist rosarians love to bury with their new roses versus what was done to grow them before purchase. As with vineyards rose producers are not going to be amending individual planting holes with 5 or 10 different additives when planting a field of thousands of specimens. If these plants grew quickly and well in the minimally or non-amended field before they were bought, why is it necessary for them to be subjected to an indulgent planting ritual when they are installed in the final purchaser's home garden?

Where a home garden does appear to have really unsuitable soil for a particular kind of plant it does make sense to excavate and replace the existing soil (or dump suitable soil on top of it) rather than plant in soil that will kill or stunt the plants. But grape vines are not an example of a plant that needs rich soil.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 03:35 PM
Millet Millet is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

A person can dig a large hole, say 3-ft wide, 4-5-ft. deep and amend the soil to the ideal texture for a grape vine. For the best growth of table grapes, the ideal soil would be deep, loose, light, silty or slight sandy loam. However, if one does dig such a hole and back fills with the above mixture, be sure that the mixture from the top to the bottom is carefully blended so that there is NO stratification. I would not recommend nutrient amendments such as manure, or high nitrogen synthetic fertilizers. Classic wine vineyard soils are often the exact reverse, thin, rather poor soils that make the vines "struggle" so that they develop more character and more intense flavors. Grapes adjust rather easy to a wide range of soil types. Growing grapes is different than planting a garden. Grapes do not do well in rich highly nutritious soils. As Ralph points out, a loose, high aerated soil that is quick draining is normally a good grape soil. Don't kill the plant with kindness. - Millet
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Old January 6th, 2009, 04:06 PM
iammotown iammotown is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

my wifes mom has a 11 year old thompson seedless and it thrives by itself. no pruning whatsoever, very little water( i live in arizona) and its planted in about 70% clay 30% sand.
i've read that many wine grapes do much better in poor soils. though i also read to used organic matter and manure as mulch around the base.
i bet you could grow the same vine as your neighbor in the exact same soil and have much better results just because you're doing your homework and they waited until it was too late.
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Old January 6th, 2009, 05:32 PM
Ottawa-Zone5 Ottawa-Zone5 is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Don'y you wish all plants were like grapes and figs thriving in poor soil? Figs also grow nicely in awkward places in warm counties likes cracks in the building, between the rocks and on the cliffs and growing out from retaining walls but the difference may be in fruiting load. Both need good pruning for commercial production as well as backyard growing.
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Old January 6th, 2009, 05:38 PM
Gardenlover Gardenlover is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Grapes and Olive Trees are troopers
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Old April 27th, 2009, 09:53 AM
Ravens Nook Ravens Nook is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Millet View Post
A person can dig a large hole, say 3-ft wide, 4-5-ft. deep and amend the soil to the ideal texture for a grape vine. For the best growth of table grapes, the ideal soil would be deep, loose, light, silty or slight sandy loam. However, if one does dig such a hole and back fills with the above mixture, be sure that the mixture from the top to the bottom is carefully blended so that there is NO stratification. I would not recommend nutrient amendments such as manure, or high nitrogen synthetic fertilizers. Classic wine vineyard soils are often the exact reverse, thin, rather poor soils that make the vines "struggle" so that they develop more character and more intense flavors. Grapes adjust rather easy to a wide range of soil types. Growing grapes is different than planting a garden. Grapes do not do well in rich highly nutritious soils. As Ralph points out, a loose, high aerated soil that is quick draining is normally a good grape soil. Don't kill the plant with kindness. - Millet
Millet, thanks for all of your info, But.... my property in Peoples Valley Az, is on top of a hill were the ground is packed hard with clay sand and caleche.
I am thinking of a raised bed for my grapes. Reading your quotes, I am thinking of removing 2-3 feet of ground, and placeing a 2 foot raised bed above it.
Using the ground (stuff) dirt and mixing equal parts of compost. Will that do the trick??

Help
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  #24  
Old May 9th, 2009, 10:16 PM
zoomroom zoomroom is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Well ... hmmmm? I live in Phoenix and have our grapes in garbage sandy/clay soil and they get about a quarter inch of water a day and other than that I ignore them and we get beautiful grapes from may until October. We have a few clumps just about ready. I was raised on a farm in Italy and we also raised grapes there and other than yearly pruning and harvest, we ignored them and they produced great grapes in the soil nothing else would grow in.
One thing that makes my stomach hurt sometimes is thinking that as a kid, we'd week whack the fragolina plants (tiny alpine strawberries, sweeter than honey) because the plants grew like weeds everywhere.Now I can't grow a strawberry to save my life.
thank for this great usergroup. I look forward to learning more from all of you.
thanks
pb
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  #25  
Old May 10th, 2009, 07:45 PM
Millet Millet is offline
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Re: How deep do Grape Vine(s) root?

Raven, if what you wind up with has good drainage, good soil aeration, and sufficient depth for good root structure, your grapes should do well. - Millet (1,350-)
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