new house with a problem hill

Discussion in 'HortForum' started by strider3700, Nov 28, 2004.

  1. strider3700

    strider3700 Member

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    I've just purchased a new house and although I've never been overly interested in gardening I know there is something I'll have to deal with at this location.

    The yard effectively breaks down into two areas. A large flat area covered in grass that also has the house on it and a large area that is basically heavily treed with regrowth from logging about 40 years ago. Thats fine, I like both areas. The lot is on the north side of a hill though, and relatively close to the ocean (300M or so) I've yet to see a lot of sun getting through the trees, and everything is pretty damp behind the house.

    Now the problem area is right at the back of the flat area behind the house there is a steep hill. roughly 70 feet long and I'd guess 12 feet high on average. It ranges from steep to almost verticle. at the east side it's about a 45 degree slope at the west side it's impossible to climb up, never mind walk, 70 degress maybe? anyways very steep. The entire area is over shadowed by large trees

    The last 20 feet is that super steep area and I'm not worried about it. I'll be knocking it down into a more reasonable slope soon. The other 50 feet though is currently a mix of ferns, small fir trees some form of quick growing trees with small leaves and lots of black berries. When I first saw the land I thought this area was useless but now that the black berries have died out for the year I see a couple of small terraces on it.

    After all of that detail my question is whats the best thing I can do to reclaim this area from the black berries. It's right behind my back porch so it would be nice if it looked pretty. I'm concerned about the slope, the shade and the moisture. Does anyone have any recommendations on where I can find info on doing something nice here? I prefer a more natural looking garden then something formal.
     
  2. Newt

    Newt Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Strider,

    I realize it's been a long time since you posted your questions and I was wondering if you have the solutions you need. If not, let me know and I'll try and help. The main problem for me is that I don't know where Nanaimo is and I'd need to know where you are located. Are you on Vacouver Island? That would help with plant selection.

    Newt
     
  3. strider3700

    strider3700 Member

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    nanaimo is on vancouver island, basically we're 30 miles west of vancouver. The climate is basically identical but I may get a bit more rain then them, we're talking a minimal difference though.

    Now that I've been here almost 2 months I'm pretty sure the real issue won't be the the slope of the hill but the full and total lack of sun and possibly the moisture. I haven't seen direct sunshine here once since I got here the first of december. And based on the fact that the majority of my yard is moss of one sort or another I'm going to guess only the very front tip of my yard where the vegetable garden is gets any real amounts of sun. The moisture may just be a fluke, it's really really wet here due to above average rainfall and snow. The ground drains quickly but a lot of little springs show up in my back yard when it's raining this much.

    thanks for any help you can provide, Everything I'm finding seems to require either at least some direct sun or dry conditions.
     
  4. Newt

    Newt Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I forgot to congratulate you on your new home! I looked at a map and it appears that you are in either hardiness zone 7 or 8. That's a good thing. Here's some info on getting rid of the blackberries with non chemical means.

    http://www.pesticide.org/blackberries.pdf

    As to the plants that you could use, there are many. Most people think that just because a garden is in shade that it can't be colorful. There are many wonderful shade plants that bloom, others that have colorful leaves and some with berries that will bring color and feed wildlife. The wildlife will bring more color and excitement to your garden as well. A good place to start with selection would be native plants. They are better adapted to the conditions and will be better able to resist pests and diseases. I did a search at www.google.com and put in the search box:
    native plants + Vancouver Island
    and got 128,000 hits. Here's some that should be helpful that you can click around and look for ideas for plants. Click around at this first one as there's a page that recommends plants that do well together.

    http://www.naturepark.com/nativepl.htm
    http://www.hillkeep.ca/welcome.htm
    http://www.canadanursery.com/canadanursery/bclna/a-list.lasso

    Since you are new to gardening, you might want to attend some lectures to learn more or tour some of these places to note what/how they have planted in situations like yours. The third one is one I'd love to see. They also have a plant sale in the spring. All the links below came from this one:
    http://www.naturepark.com/plsales.htm

    http://www.seedsavers.bc.ca/
    http://morrell.bc.ca/welcome.shtml
    http://swanlake.bc.ca/nativeplants.htm Click on 'Native Plants'
    http://www.milnergardens.org/index.htm - Last year's was in April. Here's the link with the phone #
    http://www.milnergardens.org/special_events.htm
    http://www.mala.ca/horticulture/grpaine.htm - Plant sale here in April as well.

    Keep in mind that you can get more info, and often pictures too, for plants at www.google.com Best to use the botanical name to search when you have it, as many plants have the same common name. You can also click on 'Images' at google and often get pictures as well.

    I'm not certain that you can find all of these, but here's some of my favorites for moist shade for a naturalistic setting. Most of these are native to North America and I grow them in my garden. I live in zone 7 in Maryland in the US.

    Polygonatum biflorum - Solomon's seal
    http://www.cbs.umn.edu/herbarium/gallery/solomons seal.htm

    Polygonatum odoratum 'Variegatum' - variegated Solomon's seal (my favorite of these)
    http://altura.speedera.net/ccimg.catalogcity.com/210000/211600/211629/Products/5668087.jpg
    http://www.npr.org/programs/talkingplants/profiles/podoratum.html

    Heuchera - coral bells - comes with many different colored leaves. Heuchera 'Plum Pudding' is my favorite. Scroll down and it's at the bottom of the second page here. Lots of different ones to look at and it looks great with other plants that have chartreuse leaves.
    http://www.terranovanurseries.com/pages/plantsH2.html

    Bergenia cordifolia - bergenia - is evergreen
    http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/components/7566-19.html

    Mertensia virginica - Virginia bluebells - true spring ephemeral and will disappear shortly after it blooms and come back next spring.
    http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/components/7566-35.html

    Stylophorum diphyllum - Celandine poppy - looks great with the Virginia bluebells and is also an ephemeral and will disappear after bloom and return next spring.
    http://www.grownative.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=plants.plantDetail&plant_id=54

    Phlox divaricata - woodland phlox
    http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/components/7566-37.html

    Hostas are great for shady gardens and have leaves of just about any size, shape and color. I put hosta in the search box and clicked on 'Images' here.
    http://images.google.com/images?q=hosta&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi

    That should get you started. Hope I didn't throw too much at you all at once. Oh, and try and keep the ferns and other natives you find. I also searched for a native plant society in your area and you might be able to get someone to come and id what you already have.

    http://www.npsbc.org/
    http://www.conservationconnection.bc.ca/GroupView.asp?GroupID=94
    http://victoria.tc.ca/Recreation/VIRAGS/
    http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/events/pnwplant.php

    Newt
     
  5. Ralph Walton

    Ralph Walton Active Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    sunshine

    When you have been thru a summer, you will know if this area of your yard gets sunshine. The angle of the sun (from the southern horizon) increases by about 45 degrees in the summer, so where now the sun sort of cruises along just above the horizon, in the summer the trees and hills to the south are not such a barrier to the high rising arc of the sun.

    Our first six months here started November 1 (six years ago) but by the next February I was about ready to have myself shot. Then spring sprung and wow! Two years ago the tomato cages I had for ten years in the city got crushed by the crop.

    Great advice on the blackberries by the way. If you nuke them with roundup, the tops die a bit, then the dead vines turn to barbed wire and the plant starts to grow again, even in the same season. Only now you have to deal with the dead but deadly aftermath of hard old groqth as well as the newstuff. Persistance does work on these guys.

    Ralph
     
  6. Newt

    Newt Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Ralph, you are so right about the sun. I did think of that but had so much to say that I forgot to mention it. Glad you did!! Many of the plants I recommended do want some spring sun and I was had been thinking to myself that they would have it with the angle of the sun changing. Glad you read this post!

    Newt
     
  7. strider3700

    strider3700 Member

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    Yep spring is on it's way and with it will come some sun. Last weekend I noticed for the first time direct sun light on the very northern tip of my lawn. It was only a little patch about 2 feet square but it was direct sun. This weekend I had numerous patches out there. Nothing lasted more then 10 minutes as the sun slowly moved through the trees but it was enough for me to go out and stand in it for awhile.

    So I'm not too worried about sun in the front yard. There is an old raised bed garden out there that I'm thinking should have vegetables in it. Looking at the old plastic tags they used to grow at the least mint, roma tomatoes and potatoes out there so it must get some sun. The box it's in has been there for years looking at the wood but there are only small weeds growing in the top so it was in use right up until the end of the season last year.

    Now I have to track down when to plant what for vegetables, That should be easy enough to do.

    The war on the black berries is moving along. The easy areas are cleaned out and I check them over each weekend for signs of them coming back. The main clump on the hill beside the house however is really holding it's own. There is no chance of getting mechanical assistance on that hill so I've resorted to a good old fashioned machette(sp). I'll get them all but it will take another months worth of weekends at least. On the plus side I've never had so little stress my entire life.

    The hill in the back is still confounding me though. I may just remove the dead leaves sitting on it and the scrub maples that are starting to popup and see what happens this summer. Now that the blackberries are in retreat it's mostly dead grass, moss, ferns and dead leaves all with little 4 ft tall maples climbing in it. The animals seem to like it, I have seen rabbits, and squirrels anytime I've bothered to watch for them I located a salamander under the leaves by accident last weekend and a couple of weeks back a deer worked it's way down it before running through the front yard. I just find it really bland looking

    A boggy area about 5 ft by 5ft that was wet and annoying suddenly became a minor pond with a little stream running out of it last weekend. After some quick channeling I saved my parking spot. Later I found where the original drainage route had become filled with debris. the stream is just an inch deep now but it's always running. The pond has returned to about 1/4" of water sitting in grass and other plants. It looks like the water just runs right out of the hill right there it's kinda neat actually. I'd like to take the boggy area and put an actual pond in there I think. I've always wanted one and it took less then a day for that one to have a salamander and birds in it.

    It's very shady there though. Does anyone know if I take the pond and dig it down a little can I get a pond out of it or will it just become a swamp without enough sun?

    Now I'm also wondering what everyone does with their yard debris? I have at least two truck loads of blackberry vines at this point. And under them I'm finding years worth of old leaves, and more annoying branches. The back 1/3 of an acre is raw forest and it looks like the previous owners just dumped all the old branches back there. Should I rent a chipper and just feed everything through it? Should I give up and burn it? can I somehow compost it without taking up half my yard? Thanks again

    Jamie
     
  8. Newt

    Newt Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Jamie,

    Great update as to what you've been doing. I got tired just reading about all that work! You said:

    "A boggy area about 5 ft by 5ft that was wet and annoying suddenly became a minor pond with a little stream running out of it last weekend. After some quick channeling I saved my parking spot. Later I found where the original drainage route had become filled with debris. the stream is just an inch deep now but it's always running. The pond has returned to about 1/4" of water sitting in grass and other plants. It looks like the water just runs right out of the hill right there it's kinda neat actually. I'd like to take the boggy area and put an actual pond in there I think. I've always wanted one and it took less then a day for that one to have a salamander and birds in it.

    It's very shady there though. Does anyone know if I take the pond and dig it down a little can I get a pond out of it or will it just become a swamp without enough sun?"

    If you are thinking of a pond with a liner, I wouldn't suggest it for this area. You'll have runoff from the drainage and your pond could overflow. You will also end up with debris that could eventually make a mess. Ponds do better with some sun as well, so if it's very shady you could have some other problems. If there's lots of trees close by you will need to remove the leaves from the pond or you'll have a mess again. I'd say to plant bog plants there and enjoy it for what it is, an area that is wet in spring and winter. There's lots of wildlife that thrive in that type of environment. Also, the size of the area is about ideal for a bog. After all, you've already found a salamander. Take a look here for some helpful info. Don't forget to click on the links.

    http://backyardgardener.com/bog/index.html

    You said, "Now I'm also wondering what everyone does with their yard debris?"
    Compost, compost, compost, also called black gold!

    "Should I rent a chipper and just feed everything through it?"
    Yes!!!

    "Should I give up and burn it?"
    No, please no.

    "can I somehow compost it without taking up half my yard?"
    You sure can. If you put it through a shredder, you'll probably end up with 1/4 or less in volume then what you now have. Also, as you take off the top layers of debris and get to the leaves, you should find some wonderful organic matter that smells just like earth. Great stuff. Here's how to make compost.

    http://www.howtocompost.org/
    http://www.mastercomposter.com/ref/orgmat1.html
    http://www.mastercomposter.com/
    http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/soil/
    http://www.gardenguides.com/articles/dynamic.htm
    http://www.solidwaste.org/combins.htm

    How to make leaf mold:
    http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/soil/2000043150021580.html

    Newt
     
  9. mom2kat

    mom2kat Member

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    Location:
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    I live in Powell River and about the only thing I have found to really get rid of Black berries for good is to pretty much bulldoze them out (or using saws cut and remove them to about 4-6" high)I then dug as much of the root system out as I could, and then rototillerd the earth quite deep taking out large to medium pieces of cane. I then spent a while looking for reinfestation. Those suckers can grow! I did this on a flatish pice of land, if it is on you terreaces it might work, but on the steep hill I think it would cause much erosion. This is not the easiest way and I sure had a sore back for a while but it is one of the only ways I have been able to remove large and rampant infestations.

    My mother loved blackberries and never uderstood why those of us on the coast thinks the things a massive annoyance.

    Diane
     

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