Anthurium xanthosomifolium and Anthurium faustomirandiae are not the same.

Discussion in 'Araceae' started by photopro, Dec 3, 2007.

  1. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I received an email this morning from a seller on eBay. It appears someone sent that seller a private note indicating Anthurium faustomirandae and Anthurium xanthosomifolium are one and the same. Not quite true. The botanist for whom A. faustomirandiae was named did at one time consider it to be Anthurium xanthosomifolium. But according to information published on JSTOR and other sources by botanist Dr. Tom Croat of the Missiouri Botanical Garden, they are not one and the same.


    Here is some information on Anthurium faustomirandae which includes an explanation:

    http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Anthurium faustomirandae pc.html

    If you go to TROPICOS you'll find they are different species. They aren't even considered to be synonyms. This is confusing and has been stated to be the same on the net. That is another good reason to check with a scientific site before believing almost anything about plants found on the internet.

    Here's the link to TROPICOS. Look them both up.

    http://mobot.mobot.org/W3T/Search/vast.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2007
  2. greenthumb7

    greenthumb7 Member

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    Re: Anthurium faustomirandae and Xanthosoma are not the same.

    at first I thought etrop was correct now I see the facts don't back up his opinion. Thanks for the input.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2007
  3. stone jaguar

    stone jaguar Member

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    Quite correct.

    Anthurium xanthosomifolium is a junior synonym of Anthurium titanium, neither a valid species nor a synonym of A. faustomirandae, and is treated as such in both the CentrAm Anthurium monograph and Tropicos.

    As Steve has indicated on his website, some people in the U.S. nursery trade appear to use all three binomials + A. faustinomirandae interchangeably...whatever makes 'em happy, I 'spose.

    Jay
     
  4. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    It is confusing Jay. And thanks for the confirmation.
     
  5. stone jaguar

    stone jaguar Member

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    My pleasure.

    Eiza Matuda collected Anthurium titanium in eastern Chiapas and was unaware of, or ignored, Standley and Steyermarks published description of A. titanium in Guatemala and described it as a new species. Thus the apparent confusion...A. xanthosomifolium was published in 1950...three years after A. titanium saw the light of day. Dr. Croat recognized the synonomy in his monograph and sunk it in the early 80s...why it (xantho) continues as a name in the hort trade 25 years later is anyone's guess.

    J
     
  6. trikus

    trikus Active Member

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    ''Well thats the name written on the tag when I got it from so and so 30 years ago , he knew what he was talkin' bout .. good enough for him , its good enough for me ''..
    well these attitudes must change , there was little or no information available back in the good old days , but now we have plenty of avenues for correction of all these ancient old names . Gee I have been abused and insulted for trying to point out incorrect names .
     
  7. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Good point Mic. I often find I have the wrong name on plant tags and have just elected to change the name tag and learn something new when I find I was wrong. As do most of us, I frequently find by corresponding with Dr. Croat and others who are knowledgeable the plant I thought I had was actually something else. Just yesterday Tom pointed out two pages on my website were incorrect! I took one page completely down since Tom told me he was not sure which of four similar specimens I actually have. The plant was sold as Philodendron corrugatum but is not that species. In fact, it appears Tom's research is incomplete so one may be a new species yet unnamed. In the other case, a name I was certain was correct turned out not to be as tagged. So I've spent much of the morning trying to figure out what that one might be. And if I don't get a descent resolution soon, I'll likely remove that page as well.

    Some are certain to say this is nuts. And perhaps it is. But I simply enjoy trying to make sure I get the information correct. I'm not a botanist but I enjoy learning from people like Tom. That is why I very much appreciate the input when people who are more knowledgeable than I tell me something is wrong on the site. You've done it and so has Jay. Believe me, I appreciate the "kick in the rear" as needed!
     
  8. stone jaguar

    stone jaguar Member

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    Ah, we are finally all in agreement it seems! Bring on the elfs & pink unicorns! (warning: nit-picking, long-winded response follows)

    Seriously; it irks me as much as anyone to see the laissez-faire approach that some presumably hard-core exoterica collectors approach the issue of names for their pets, but view it as part and parcel of our hobby/business. Unfortunately, IMO, this very same attitude seems to pervade aroid propagation, resulting in not only "bad" names attached to good plants but also "good" names attached to fortuitous/casual hybrids.

    Many years back, I spent a fair amount of effort trying to source Anthurium crystallinum of known provenance. As Michael probably remembers with a groan, it was a very frustrating experience that led me down an awful lot of dead-end streets and convinced me that the plants that are in general cultivation purporting to be this species throughout the world are pretty much all hybrids, mostly involving forgetii, magnificum, besseae and even regale. That this is not a recent phenomen is documented in Monroe Birdsey's venerable "The Cultivated Aroids". Granted, many of these plants are beautiful and, even though I have given many the boot, I still grow some of them for their aesthetic value. After several years of badgering nurserymen and friends, as well as spooking around the boonies of southern CentrAm I ended up with a couple of kinda iffy seed-grown plants from Michael's breeding program in Oz, plus a very solid wild-collected plant from eastern Panamá that does not look too much like what is in the trade, but does match the original hort description quite well. I have even selfed some commercial A. crystallinum to try and determine their genetic background and have invariably ended up with evidence of uncertain parentage when the seedlings grow out. The origin of 'Crystal Hope' still intrigues me, though...I have never been able to self it (or grow it particularly well for that matter).

    In spite of all this, I don't bother making an issue out of *the name* since it really serves no useful purpose EXCEPT as it relates to breeders. And since what the general public now "wants" Anthurium crystallinum to look like is precisely what is currently tagged Anthurium crystallinum in the trade, I would be jousting with windmills if I tasked myself with correcting people's views on the names of the plants in their collections.

    In any event, and as should be evident by now, I tend to take a fairly tolerant view of hort. taxonomy. I am convinced that gentle persuasion and logic get the job done better than bludgeoning people with taxonomic minutiae. But I s'pose we can agree to disagree on this point.

    Cheers,

    Jay
     
  9. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Tom and I recently went back and forth over A. crystallinum. As you know, the original painting showed a closed sinus and few specimens have these slightly overlapping upper lobes. I have no idea where it actually came from (may be a hybrid) but I now own a single specimen with that closed sinus. And after Tom saw the photo agreed it does closely match the type. But it is likely just a fluke. If you're curious to see it Jay, the new photo is on the site.
     
  10. stone jaguar

    stone jaguar Member

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    Thanks, I'll have a look.

    I'm not sure that would not put a great deal of emphasis on whether sinus is open or closed, since I have found that some plants from this group (esp. regale and dresslerii) shape shift with annoying regularity with regard to this feature; most evident as they head towards maturity, but not always.

    I find that leaf morphology PLUS petiole cross-section PLUS inflorescence (esp. spadix color) PLUS origin is a better combo. Obviously, there are a few good plants out there in the 'States and you may have one; more may be coming out of Colombia and N Ecaudor from Ecuagenera sometime soon...if you want a pedigreed one, I would definitely try for one of these when they're available.

    Cheerio,

    J
     
  11. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Because I'm a nut when it comes to reading the scientific text and then comparing that to my own specimens I often find mine are either crazy variations or simply hybrids. Still, I like to compare the text to the plant. Here's the photo of the closed sinus Anthurium crystallinum along with the original painting. Tom now wants the plant and I'll likely pack it up for him.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. stone jaguar

    stone jaguar Member

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    Steve:

    Superb side-by-side illustration of your case. I do have known Anthurium forgetii x A. crystallinum that look just like your plant; in particular, the seed parent of this cross will usually generate closed or overlapping basal lobes in its offspring...since this is a juvenile characteristic of forgetii (which becomes fully peltate at about leaf 5-6) it seems to meld well between the two sibs. They both also have very long, terete petioles and yellow spadices, so it can be tricky to "certify" a plant unless it was taken from nature or was line-bred by someone who knew what they were doing. Usually, this cross has more orbicular leaves than your plant, put this character also varies.

    My plants that are putatively this sp. do have overlapping basal lobes as adults, but you can see the ex-Uniwai plant illustrated in the Panamanian monograph has an open sinus as a flowering-sized plant.

    BTW - the absolute finest-looking Cardio with contrasting veins that I have ever seen was a "Colombian" cf. crystallinum in a private orchid collection in western Panamá in '01. This plant in mass-production would blow the competition (incl. very good regale) into the weeds. I have also seen quite a few pics of very handsome crystallinum-type plants in a collection in Cundinamarca, Colombia that are all over the place in terms of size and leaf shape...again, tough to say whether they're offspring of magnificum crosses or the real deal. Ditto for the photo on the Scherberich pages. This parent will, always IME, change the petiole cross-section in its hybrid offspring from round to square.

    Hope I've managed to muddle this issue even more than it already was ;^)

    BRgds,

    J
     
  13. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Muddle? Depends on who is reading it! I find the discussion very intesting and know personally of three others who are also following it with interest. My specimen with the closed sinus originated from a plant grown by Denis and Bill Rotolante. So far, we've been unable to verify just where the parent originated but the offspring are producing the closed sinus.

    Thanks for the extra input!
     
  14. stone jaguar

    stone jaguar Member

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    Steve:

    Seriously...I strongly recommend that you check the petiole and overlook the leaf morphology for a moment. It should be completely round/terete in cross section throughout most of its length...any signs of wings or boxiness and it's almost certainly a hybrid. My partners have the plant (¿or one of the plants?) that SKG distributes to the trade over at the greenhouse (purchased second-hand from a retail nursery in Homestead) and I consider it a ??? although it certainly is very vigorous, very nice-looking and meets the criteria that Joe Public wants when they look to purchase this "species". South Florida, IMO, can be (note emphasis) the worst place for bad Anthurium IDs in the western world, although there are a few notable exceptions such as Natural Selections Exotics and so forth.

    J
     
  15. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    The largest leaf was beginning to yellow on the edges so I just cut it. The petiole appears perfectly round. I can't find any edges at all. Who know, maybe I got luck on this one?

    Thanks again.
     
  16. stone jaguar

    stone jaguar Member

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    Great!

    Hope you're good to go with this. Some info on its infl. would also be good when available. Would be interesting if the R's can determine the origin of this plant at some point in the future. Hopefully someone can also reassess/lectotypify this species to clear things up.

    J
     
  17. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I'm working on it and something tells me Tom will be as well.
     

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