What Carpinus - messier than those nice tidy ones

Discussion in 'Plants: Identification' started by wcutler, Aug 5, 2012.

  1. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    These are probably private trees (on the left in the first photo), but on the street in front of an office building, and conveniently enough, the street trees right there are what I think are the hornbeams I'm used to seeing here, the ones Gerald Straley, in Trees of Vancouver, identified as Carpinus betulus 'Fastigiata'. I thought that shape was what defined hornbeam, but apparently not, as the ones I'm asking about have hornbeam fruits (and a lot of them), but a messier shape, and they're less dense.
    20120803_HelmckenHomer_Carpinus_Cutler_P1290001.jpg 20120803_HelmckenHomer_Carpinus_Cutler_P1290013.jpg

    These leaves are larger than the leaves on the street trees. First set are the ones in question; second set are the street trees. No fruits at all on those.
    20120803_HelmckenHomer_Carpinus_Cutler_P1290050.jpg 20120803_HelmckenHomer_Carpinus_Cutler_P1290051.jpg 20120803_HelmckenHomer_Carpinus_Cutler_P1290053.jpg
    20120803_HelmckenHomer_CarpinusBetulusFatigiata_Cutler_P1290048.jpg 20120803_HelmckenHomer_CarpinusBetulusFatigiata_Cutler_P1290049.jpg

    Are the ones in question just the Carpinus betulus species tree?
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  2. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    The fruit lobes look like those of Carpinus betulus (and therefore it is a species in Carpinus sect. Carpinus), but that 12 cm leaf doesn't. Perhaps Carpinus viminea (syn. C. fargesii)?? - that is given a max. leaf length of 11cm, not too far out. In the key in the Flora of China, it keys out best to Carpinus tientaiensis, but that's not reported in Western cultivation, so is unlikely, with C. viminea as the next best fit (compare also figs. 2 and 10). I don't know if there are any Japanese Carpinus spp. with similar fruit morphology.

    As an aside, the shape of C. betulus 'Fastigiata' doesn't define the genus, just that cultivar. Even normal C. betulus is far less stiffly formal with a very irregular trunk and crown (and much nicer, in my opinion).
     
  3. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Maybe something Piroche Plants brought in from China. Last time I looked their old web pages were still up, I'd check there to see if they were offering any Carpinus, and if one of those might fit.
     
  4. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Thanks, Michael, and especially for those links.
    Thanks, Ron, for the suggestion about Piroche Plants. They have C. japonica, about which wikipedia says
    On the Hornbeam page, wikipedia says
    The size is close, but are the wings the "seed bracts" that are supposed to be unlobed? And it seem that there are about 12 pairs of veins. I ruled that one out.

    The other Piroche offerings are either fastigiate or have tiny leaves.

    Maybe this photo shows the leaves better.
     

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  5. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Next look at The Plant Locator - Western Region (2004, Black-Eyed Susans/Timber) to see which species were listed by nurseries that responded to their pre-publication survey, ended up in the book. Probably a pretty good indication of what has been on the market out here in recent years. Some BC companies participated. There is also the listings on the web site of the BC Nursery Trades Association (or whatever the exact name and organization is, that provides an online wholesale buyers guide for BC).
     
  6. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    The Canadian Nursery Landscape Association F.I.N.D. page shows, in addition to what has been discussed,

    Carpinus betulus ‘Pyramidal’ (Pyramidal Hornbeam)
    Carpinus koreena (Korean Hornbeam) - on Dave's Garden called coreana, or on GardenWeb: "Forest Farm nursery lists Carpinus turczaninowii coreana"
    Carpinus betulus ‘Globosa’ (Globosa European Hornbeam)
    Carpinus betulus ‘Columnaris'
    Carpinus betulus ‘Columnaris'
    Carpinus caroliniana (American Hornbeam)

    There's a blog with "Photos of the bark of Carpinus coreana, cordata, laxiflora (that's fargesii?), and turczaninovii". I'm not having much luck finding descriptions of these.
    I guess I'll have to pay more attention to the bark.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2012
  7. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Definitely not that - the fruit bract is a very different shape.
     
  8. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Looks like a cone, leaves are more slender also. The Plant Locator lists more than 15 species.
     
  9. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I don't have that book, and I have no idea where I would find it.

    I'm guessing these trees are too young for the bark to have distinguishing characteristics.
    20120803_HelmckenHomer_Carpinus_Cutler_P1290050.jpg

    My Collins Tree Guide (Johnson & More, HarperCollins 2004) shows a tree with a similar profile that it calls "Hornbeam Columnaris", but today I saw what I'm sure is C. betulus 'Columnaris', which looks nothing like the trees in question (or the example in that book), and anyway, has smaller leaves and fruits.
    20120807_1065MarinasideCr_CarpinusBetulusColumnaris_Cutler_P1290484.jpg 20120807_1065MarinasideCr_CarpinusBetulusColumnaris_Cutler_P1290487.jpg 20120807_1065MarinasideCr_CarpinusBetulusColumnaris_Cutler_P1290492.jpg
     
  10. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    I would assume those to be sheared C. betulus 'Fastigiata'. They even have whips of different, looser growth breaking out of the tight overall outlines, as is common with sheared specimens that have not been gone over recently enough for such rebelliousness to have been put down. What did they look like on the inside, did you check to see if there was evidence of repeated pruning back?
     
  11. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I know you've been waiting all year and more for the answer to the pruning question. I found the gardeners last week. They do prune these once a year. They didn't know the exact name, assumed they were naturally that shape and they were just tidying them up and keeping them separated. Carpinus betulus 'Fastigiata', then.

    No sign of their changing colour yet, but on one of the google street views, I can see that they'll turn yellow. None of the photos shows that there are another two rows of these to the right of the reflecting pool, maybe around 40 in all. [Edited]These, of course, are not the messier ones of the subject of this thread.
     
  12. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    You can tell sheared woody plants because there is old cut stem ends all through them.
     
  13. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I wasn't able to see the pruned ends on the Carpinus betulus 'Fastigiata' two years ago, but they're very obvious right now.
     

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