Question on apple seedlings

Discussion in 'Fruit and Nut Trees' started by Spirros, Jan 15, 2007.

  1. Spirros

    Spirros Member

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    Hi, Im new to these forums (although Ive lurked for quite some time) and I have got a question. I planted a few apple seeds at the beginning of November, and they are currently all in small pots, and have mostly been growing rather well. They came from a Haralson apple, Im pretty sure, and I know they wont produce true to the parent, but I thought Id like to conduct this experiment. However, Ive come to notice that at the base of the stems, the darker skin of the stem seems to be peeling away and it has either continued peeling up farther on the stem, or it was there in the beginning, and has just grown with it. It just has me slightly worried as I dont want them to die, and Im rather new to this whole thing and Im not sure if it is a disease of any specific kind. The skin that is left after the darker skin peels off is a slightly lighter, and somewhat green coloration of the regular stem color. For the past month Ive also been in a "battle" with gnats that have infested the soil as well, although Im not sure if that has anything to do with it. I took a few pictures, one of the plant, and one of the area of which I speak.
    If you guys have any information on this, it would be gladly appreciated. Thanks!

    -Jared

    P.S. The browning of one of the leaves is from it being slightly burned. It has nothing to do with the stem.
     

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    Last edited: Jan 15, 2007
  2. globalist1789

    globalist1789 Active Member

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    If you have a gnat problem then you are watering too often. The breed in the top layer of the soil. If that stays wet then you get more gnats. Let the top inch or so dry before watering... simple as that.

    It may be the extra water that is effecting your bark, but as long as it's green and not soft and dark then I think you're ok. However, too much water could lead to real problems in the future.

    Michael
     
  3. 4moreaction

    4moreaction Member

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    Re: ... about your apple seedlings!

    ... the symptoms on your seedlings is propably just result of them growing. As they grow so does the stem...;O) I would not be worried at all...

    greetings: matti from finland
     
  4. Spirros

    Spirros Member

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    Alright, thank you for the replies! I wasnt quite sure if it was a problem or not, so I thought Id just make sure. Ive been trying to kill the gnats for some time by A)keeping the soil dry and only watering when I absolutely must and B)spraying the dirt with water mixed with soap. But whenever I do finally water the plants again, it seems like the gnats suddenly reappear. I'll see what I can do. Thanks for quieting my fears though, and for the welcome to the boards!
    -Jared
     
  5. globalist1789

    globalist1789 Active Member

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    In killing the gnats you just need to be persistent. You shouldn’t need to the soap. I find that there are always a few flying around but a infestation is a different matter. Depending on how deep your pot is, you could dress the soil with a ½ inch of sand. Gnats lay their eggs in organic matter. I don’t do this because I count on the gnats to keep my urge to over water in check. :)
     
  6. Spirros

    Spirros Member

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    Haha, alright, that seems like an interesting method lol. I just find them incredibly annoying, honestly, which is why I want them all dead, heh. Even a few bug me, no pun intended. :-P
     
  7. Applenut

    Applenut Active Member

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    Growing apples from seed is great fun. I call it "cubicle orcharding" because at work I take the seeds out of my apple from lunch and put them in a damp paper towell inside the sandwich bag my lunch came in, and set it on top of my computer monitor. About 1/3 of the time at least a couple of the seeds sprout in a week or so, then I plant them in a styrofoam coffee cup with with plain dirt from the planter and set it in the window. Don't bother with poking a hole in the bottom of the cup.

    When it is about 6-8" tall I transplant it into a 5-gallon pot also filled with plain dirt and leave it outside with drip irrigation, mulched with an inch of shredder chips. Usually if I start this around February or March it is large enough by late summer to bud graft if I happen to find a worthy scion. If not, it gets overwintered in the pot and then whip grafted in late winter and planted by February. Under no circumstance should you let it go another year in the pot, or you might not get it out!

    Even though you're starting the seedling now it will still grow right through until fall.
     
  8. Spirros

    Spirros Member

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    You can start growing them right out of the apple? I was under the impression that you had to cold stratify the seeds in order to get them out of a "hibernation" stage?
    I have been having quite a good time with these seedlings... I have three of them, the tallest one probably about 2-3". I think they are in quart sized containers, except for one which is in a gallon sized.. I kind of want to grow one all the way, and not use it as a root stock, just to see what it turns out like.
     
  9. 4moreaction

    4moreaction Member

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    ...good for you... ;O))... have you ever considered that all different applecultivars originally started as a seedling... so if you have space where you can plant your seedlings You can end up with a new delicious cultivar of your own within 5-15 years (because it takes about that time before it gives its first fruits) ...so keep up with the good work...
     
  10. Applenut

    Applenut Active Member

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    By about this time of year the apples have been in cold storage long enough to sprout. If you can find some apple grown in New Zealand in your supermarket (like Pink Lady) it will definately work, as they've been in storage since spring (their fall). Occasionally Pink Lady seeds will have already sprouted inside the apple and are ready to plant.

    One of our seedling apple trees has remarkable fall color (a rarity here in Southern California as most tree leaves just turn brown or pale yellow) and holds the leaves a long time through our nasty hot and dry fall winds. M26 rootstock also has nice fall foilage.
     

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  11. Spirros

    Spirros Member

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    Yeah, I think its pretty cool that all the current cultivars have come from seedlings. Just daunting that apparently only a few in many thousands can ever be of a "great" quality.

    Alright applenut, I see what you mean. The seedlings that I had gotten for the ones Im growing right now were from an apple that grew at my girlfriend's house, so I guess I did do the right thing in stratifying it. Ive seen Pink Lady at the store, and I almost actually got a few, but decided to go with Gala instead, as I honestly had never heard of Pink Lady before and wasnt sure how it would taste (Im not going to eat an apple I dont like in order to get seeds from it lol). Would I be wrong to assume that I dont need to stratify Gala seeds? <-- Scratch that. I just decided to eat one of the apples I got, and was extremely surprised to find most all the seeds sprouting! Some of them even have a lot of growth on them. It surprised me because Ive never seen this happen before so had always assumed that this was rare. Do I just need to plant them in some soil now for them to take off? Im guessing so.

    And btw, those are some pretty awesome colors for the leaves. Does the parent apple that it came from have those kind of colors as well, or was it just a random thing that came from its new set of genetics? I would love to get colors like that out of my seedlings heh heh.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2007
  12. 4moreaction

    4moreaction Member

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    it's exciting though that it just has to be that one seedling that will carry those dreamy fruits...lol!!

    It's more of a common thing for apples to get brilliant autumn colors here in scandinavia... ;O))... some consolation for the bitter wintercold weather we have every year for couple of months... genetics work their wonders for our advantage

    if not totally wrong...you'd at least get better result with the seeds if you stratify them...
     
  13. Spirros

    Spirros Member

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    Haha, very true. Just the fact that you never know what you might get is good enough to make me want to grow them. Im not sure what the foliage is like here in N. Illinois. I dont get much exposure to apple trees - only one Ive ever really seen in person was my girlfriends, and I didnt spot any amazing colors there. Theres an apple orchard maybe 15 minutes from me though, and I had been planning to go this last year, but it never happened. Need to find some time sometime in the late summer to go.
     
  14. Applenut

    Applenut Active Member

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    The seeds came from a Fuji apple, and it doesn't color up at all. The best colors seem to come from dark green leaves, typical to some crabapples and many seedling trees and rootstocks. The color isn't the only variable with it, as the green-leafed seedling in the pot behind it was planted the same time (different apple though) and isn't even starting to turn, even though they're growing in the same conditions.

    This brings to mind some warm-climate performance of crabapples I'll continue on in another thread.

    Although one in ten thousand seedling apples are good, it doesn't mean that you have to grow that many to find a good one. Many great discoveries were accidents, the result of one or two trees sprouting on someone's land. Granny Smith came up from a washtub of apple trimmings. Cameo apple was a volunteer in a Red Delicious Orchard. Hawkeye (Delicious) was a volunteer in a farmer's row. All these were considered "weed" trees, not the result of some grand breeding experiment. Your seedling tree probably won't be great, but then again there's as good of chance as anybody else's tree that it could be great.
     
  15. Spirros

    Spirros Member

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    Huh, what youve said about your seedling's leaves just makes me wonder what mine could do when I finally put them outside. On that same topic, how long do you think I should wait before they go outside? I wasnt sure if them being in pots would affect anything like their roots in the winter.

    But thats true about the seeds. And even if I dont get a "great" one worthy of propagation, doesnt mean I wont get an "ok" one that I can still enjoy. Thats a really cool bout of information about those cultivars. They do say that some of the best "inventions" happened through mistakes :-P.
     
  16. Applenut

    Applenut Active Member

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    In order to grow properly your seedlings need full sun. As long as they are getting that, you can leave it in the small pot until they are about 6-8" high. Once potted mind did better in plain dirt with a bit of vermiculite than in potting mix.

    I guess getting success is like trying to call a popular radio talk show. Some try everyday for years and never get through, and others make it the first time they try.

    Serious apple breeding is a daunting task, which is why University programs are mostly the ones doing it. You basically grow 30,000 seedlings, then take a bite out of each one. Pick the score or so best ones, and shred the rest and start over. They have it down to a 3-year cycle from planting to harvest. Most breeding programs are geared for the commercial grower, but us home gardeners get the "crumbs" that fall from the table that are considered unsuitable for commercial use but well suited for the (unprofitable) home orchard.
     
  17. Spirros

    Spirros Member

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    Yeah. I have to say, growing apples from seeds is quite the long term project. So youre saying that when I move it to a larger pot, and put it outside, itll be fine during the winter? I wasnt sure if it being above ground, rather than in it, would affect the plant at all when it goes below freezing and the soil freezes.
     
  18. Applenut

    Applenut Active Member

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    I'm the wrong one to ask about that, as we're in Southern California and I have no clue what freezing roots will do. I'm sure some of the other folks can chime in about that.

    Before you all start getting envious of our warm weather, a recent freeze just hammered the citrus and avocado trees of Southern and Central California (including mine) costing millions in lost crops and putting thousands out of work. But I'm smug with my apple trees that didn't have a bit of damage, and the cold may even help.
     
  19. Spirros

    Spirros Member

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    Lol, I am envious but it happens. I bet I can grow corn better than you!! Lol, alright. Heres hoping that someone who has experience with trees in pots and lives in a colder climate will chime into this thread.

    Actually, it has been getting quite mild as of late. We've only had two snow falls this winter, and the last one wsa two days ago. Other than that, its been in the 30's and 40's usually. Very unusual stuff. And though off topic, I will be getting a citrus tree in the next few months! Itll be a good experiment lol.

    I put the seeds that I got out of my gala apple today into a baggie with a damp paper towel wrapped around them, as I cant get into my shed where my extra pots and soil is (it is frozen shut, sadly lol), so heres hoping it thaws in the next few days so I can plant these seeds since theyve already sprouted...
     
  20. globalist1789

    globalist1789 Active Member

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    There are a few of us here that are into bonsai, and that is trees in pots. What exactly do you need to know? Are you planning to keep the tree in a pot for it's whole life or just a year or so before you find a good spot to plant it?

    As for when to move it outside, you need to find out when you expect your last frost for the year. After that you'll need to harden off you seedlings. Start placing them out in the shade for a few hours during the day and then bringing them back in. Then over a number of weeks lengthen the amount of time they are out until they are finally out all day and night. As you do this also get them used to more and more sun in the same way. Once you are done, then trees should never come into a heated house again, ever.
     
  21. Spirros

    Spirros Member

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    Ahh, Ive been thinking about keeping it in a pot. Not having it ultra small, but prob a bit bigger than what a dwarf citrus tree would be. My concern with that is that I wont be able to produce any fruit by keeping it that small. Is that a relevant concern?

    Ive actually been wondering about the last frost, except for other reasons (when to start my garden in general). Just looked, and discovered it to be around April 28th. I had heard you guys speaking about "hardening off" but I had never known what that meant. Thanks for explaining! I actually had taken my plants outside about 2 weeks ago when it was a bit milder outside, in the upper 30's, lower 40's - kept em out there for 2 days and then brought the back in because I saw that the two weaker ones had started to wilt a bit. I think that was because we had a heavy dew in the morning them and was water logging them. So, once they are hardened off they should never return back inside ever? Im guessing that means their roots will be fine. Good to know!
     
  22. globalist1789

    globalist1789 Active Member

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    The smaller the tree the more of a drain it is for it to produce fruit. So, if you want fruit then you need to let it grow nice and big. Who knows how big the apples are going to be. It's hard for a tree to grow fruit that is as heavy as the tree.

    The biggest problem with growing trees in containers is that the soil, after a while, doesn't drain well. A mix of conifer bark mulch and gravel, grit or perlite will give you a soil that will last for a number of years and keep lots of air around the roots.

    I'm not sure how hardy apples are in containers. But after the leaves fall the tree can be put into the ground (pot and all) to protect the roots. It can be put into an UNHEATED shed or into a larger container and packed with mulch.
     
  23. Spirros

    Spirros Member

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    Alright, that sounds good. Thanks for the advice! And thanks for answering my next question before I asked it lol, I was going to ask what the soil should be like. I had never heard of some of the things mentioned here (perlite, vermiculite...) before I got here, and Im still unsure what vermiculite is and where to get it.

    But regarding the size of the tree, thats what I had worried about. I dont have space to put it in the ground, because I frankly have no ground to put it in, especially at this moment. The only places I can place it are in pots. If you were to prune the tree back a lot and make it much smaller, if you stopped after awhile, would the tree start to grow back into what its genetics programmed it to be? And if I do keep it in a pot, should I ever trim the roots at all? How would I go about doing that?

    And also, I havent started using any fertilizer yet - should I? And if so, what kinds of combinations? Are there any micronutrients I really need to look out for as well?
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2007
  24. Applenut

    Applenut Active Member

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    If you keep the tree starved and confined in it's infancy, it will never become the 30' giant it could have been even if you move it to the ground later in life. I keep several seedling rootstock trees in the ground espaliered 5' high and it is no trouble at all.

    Vermiculite is just lava rock and resembles styrofoam beans from a bean bag chair, and you can find it in the inside garden section at the nursery or at Home Depot in huge bags. I raise a lot of apples in pots in a mixture of plain dirt and vermiculite, no organic material mixed in. I feed them by putting a 2" layer of mulch such as miniature bark on top of the pot. The tree sends up feeder roots into the bottom layer of deteriorating bark and gets all the food it needs, plus the bark helps condition the soil in the pot. I wouldn't fertilize any more than this. Add more bark yearly.

    You will want to do all your pruning on it during the summer to stunt the growth. Pruning it when it's dormant just invigorates it. I think you have very good chances of success.
     
  25. globalist1789

    globalist1789 Active Member

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    Applenut, is there a chance that you are confusing perlite and vermiculite? Perlite is the white puffy balls. Vermiculite is the brown/gold/black chunks. Vermiculite holds a LOT of water. This is good in California, but in colder climates might lead to rot.
     

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