japanese maple tree sudden leaf wilt

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Judybill42, Apr 25, 2008.

  1. John Hosie

    John Hosie Active Member

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    OK. Call me stupid if you like. When I answered first time, I could only see the second picture. The first one came up as a bad link. So I just went back and rechecked the pix. I still don't have a great idea of what has happened to your trees, but is there any chance you have had a late frost? A number of our local nurseries have been discounting JMs because they got them from southern growers, and a late frost damaged and killed a lot of the leaves. So the trees look ugly, and rather than just pluck the bad leaves and let them grow back in, they've decided to cut the prices. Just a thought because you did mention it being windy and cold.
     
  2. Bubbasweet

    Bubbasweet Member

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    Yes I seeen now it was not furtilizer. Mind plays tricks on you when your tree ups and suddenly loses all it's leaves. I removed the really dry ones. structure looks good. I do see some white powderish type stiff in the crooks of the branches but other than that tree is still nice and shiny. I am hoping all the leaves grow back.

    We will see...
     
  3. John Hosie

    John Hosie Active Member

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    The white powder bothers me. Powdery mildew?
     
  4. Bubbasweet

    Bubbasweet Member

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  5. John Hosie

    John Hosie Active Member

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    Good to have somethign of a closeup.

    From the small part of the tree you have shown, with contrasting background, it looks like the main trunk, with green bark, is alive. I can't tell if side branches are also alive, or if they have blackened. I usually scrape a small amount of bark off with a thumbnail to see. If it is green underneath, there is hope. If it doesn't want to come up at all, or is black or white, it is dead. Trim the dead parts off. If this turns out to be progressive black rot, the bark will turn black where it is now green, and keep traveling toward the base of the tree over time. This is where I choose to perform more drastic surgery, and cut well below the blackened part, but where there are still bud "lines" on the branch or trunk, so these can sprout new leaves.
     
  6. AlastairBird

    AlastairBird Member

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    Hello, first-time poster, long(ish)-time gardener.

    I have the identical situation as what started this thread - my Bloodgood Japanese Maple has gone from looking just fine to looking quite dead in the course of about 10 days.

    The tree is about 3 years old - it is in relatively well-drained soil, but we do have a clay layer down a few feet. The tree was doing fine and then all of a sudden, hey-presto, the leaves have all started to curl.

    I have examined the tree and I can find no evidence of trauma. Photos are attached detailing the condition of the leaves and trunk (note the large black spot mid-frame) as well as a cross-section of a branch.

    We re-did the landscaping last year and brought in some new topsoil - is it possible the root ball is buried under too much soil?

    Any ideas would be greatly appreciated, but given what I have read above it doesn't sound particularly hopeful.

    I suppose my biggest question is whether or not it would be a good idea to re-plant another JM there or maybe to move to another tree?
     

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  7. Bubbasweet

    Bubbasweet Member

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    The wierd thing is, I do not think mine is dead. But everything else you suggest seems to indicate we had the same experience. We are also both in the lower mainland. I had the guy from Dykoffs look at it and he seemed to think the tree itself health wise was OK. I see you have cut yours. It does look green under the bark. Are you sure it was dead?

    I think mine is going to reproduce leaves again but the question is when? I do see some sprouts.

    We have had the worst weather this year. It really makes me angry that I do not get the red leaves this year. It is a nice variation.
     
  8. AlastairBird

    AlastairBird Member

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    No, actually, I'm not sure it's dead. You've made a good point - perhaps I'm being a bit hasty. If the leaves weren't curled it would be a perfectly happy specimen, I think.

    However, I've been looking at the tree and the soil around it and I do think we managed to bury it a bit too much with us mounding up the new soil in the bed. Also, the soil right at the base of the tree was pretty muddy this afternoon, and we haven't had rain for, what, 12 or 16 hours?

    ...so I do wonder if it has just had too much water, and coupled with too much soil on top of the root ball it wasn't getting the drainage it needed.

    I don't see any evidence of any new growth, but after further consideration I'm going to leave it for the next little while (at least until the weather warms up - if it ever does) and see if I do get some new growth.

    I'll report back if anything changes. I do hope we don't lose the tree.
     
  9. John Hosie

    John Hosie Active Member

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    AlastairBird,
    Here are a few things to think about.

    First of all, get a pic of the base of the tree - where the soil comes up to the base. Close up - possibly from opposite sides.

    Second, what has the weather been like?

    How much have you been watering it?

    I'd also like to see some more areas of the bark, and possibly a shot from a bit farther back where you identify where that black spot is.

    JMs are finicky with water. There is a very fine line between doing fine and dying. Either too wet or too dry will kill the tree.

    Soil isn't a problem unless it came up over the true bark. JMs, like most trees, don't like to have the soil come up over the bark. There are enzymes/chemicals in the root bark that, for lack of a better term, taste bad to soil bugs. But the above-ground bark lacks these same chemicals. When you put soil up on the trunk a way - and not very far, these "bugs" will go through the bark and attack the tree.

    Wetness tends to encourage fungi. Some are OK. But some will kill the tree. They usually start by attacking the roots - often the hair-like roots. There are some kinds of grubs, also, that don't mind the bad taste in the root bark and can attack the roots. I've been told by one of the Oregon grafting farms that there is a bug called a "root weevil" that sometimes attacks small trees and will quickly kill them. I have not seen them myself.

    There is also the possibility that the soil dried out. Though you don't want the soil to get too wet, too dry is just as bad. With both the fungus attack and the tried roots, leaves will suddenly shrivel up and die.

    Over-fertilizing will sometimes kill a tree by burning the roots. Same symptoms.

    There's a borer that gets under the bark that will also kill JMs. I had it happen to two Bloodgoods that were well established in different parts of the yard - both at roughly the same time.

    In late winter/early spring, the sun can warm the bark and start the tree sap flowing - and sometimes leafing out. But a late freeze can then kill the tree, or at least kill the leaves. We have a couple of nurseries in the area down here (DC area) that have had serious sales this spring because leaves were burned by a late freeze and they didn't want to keep trees that looked bad on the lot. Of course, they were will alive, at least, and I bought several (maybe 8-10) at 20% of list price. All are doing fine now, still potted.

    In the case of the sap flowing too soon, the suggested preventative measure is to either wrap or paint the trunk with something white so it reflects the sunlight better. Wrapping has always sounded like a better idea to me, because I don't like the look of a painted tree trunk.

    There is a bacterial or viral blight - not sure which - that sometimes attacks JMs under stress. It starts with a branch or trunk turning black, and fairly quickly, the blackness progresses along the tree bark - going both upward and downward on the branch/trunk. When this happens the only way around it continuing to progress is to take drastic action in cutting it back. This is not the first course of action, as many times a branch will just die and the infection will go no further. But a progressive blight, like most progressives, will steal health away from healthy parts if drastic measures are not taken to extricate the diseased part of the tree.

    I have clay soil here. I've had several different trees and shrubs - and even some perennials - die off because the hole they are planted in becomes essentially a bucket, and when there is a heavy rain, it fills up and drowns the plant. The same thing will happen if over-watered. The only way around it is to force drainage away from the area. For me, this has meant digging a trench going downward away from the tree, filling it with a layer of gravel and sand, and topping it off with soil, heading off to an area where it won't pool back up around the roots. Sometimes people will put a PVC pipe in the trench to provide a more direct way out for the excess water. (French drain?) Consider it. We've had troubles with azealias, rhodys, maples, and even red dogwoods and red-twig dogwoods when we didn't attempt this sort of remedy in advance.

    I have had JMs die at the graft point - usually as a result of some pressure being put on the graft that caused a tiny crack that got water in it, and the tree became infected from there. In this case, above the point of the graft the tree seems to die, but if I scratch the bark below the graft it is still green inside. Above the graft the bark eventually turns black and the tree appears to die. But below the graft - and often right at the graft point - the tree will miraculously recover. The leaves will be those of the rootstock used for the graft, so often you will lose the nice red of the Bloodgood leaves. But you do have a tree that can be grown from there. For many, it won't really matter, but if you do bonsai as I do, it can end up being a very nice somewhat aged tree that can end up being formed into a nice bonsai with a thick trunk without having to wait 10-15 years.

    The bark of your tree - from what I see, looks like it is still green, so the tree might be still alive enough to be nursed back to health.

    Do you think I might have said too much?
     
  10. John Hosie

    John Hosie Active Member

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    AlastairBird,
    The one thing I left out is whether you should plant another JM in the same place. I'd say no - not unless you know what caused this one to die (assuming it does die.) If there was some sort of disease or bug associated with the death - or even something chemical like fertilizer or too much acid or base - the new tree will start out in stress and be very likely to get the same problem. Usually want to change it to something else. I'd consider something like a tricolor beech, red leaved white birch (Royal Frost?) or possibly Purple Smoke, Purple Plum, or maybe even something completely different by going with a conifer - like the Red-tipped Norway Spruce cultivar - Picea Abies Rubra Spicata - whose new needles come in red/pink in spring before gradually turning green like the rest of the tree.
     
  11. John Hosie

    John Hosie Active Member

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    Bubbasweet,
    How is the tree doing now? I've been challenged with my trees - losing a bunch in unseasonably warm and dry late winter/early spring that ended up drying out the soil more than expected in some of the pots. But I keep most of mine potted.
     
  12. AlastairBird

    AlastairBird Member

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    Hi John, thanks very much for your detailed reply. Notes below.

    Done - the red arrow represents the height of the soil before I moved it away last night to see just how low the root ball was.


    Well, as a born-and-bred Vancouverite I'm going to say it has been wet, but not moreso than normal (**insert the rest of the city vehemently disagreeing with me**) But, actually, both last spring and this spring have been cooler and wetter than normal.

    Not that much at all - I did just install a drip-line irrigation system but it has a rain sensor and it will not come on if we have more than 1/8" of rain. Even then it only drips for 10 minutes - it's Netafim and each valve on the line drips 1 US Gallon per hour - I would say that there are 4 or 5 valves near the tree (from both sides) so the max it gets if the irrigation is on is less than a gallon of water per day.

    Whoops, didn't get that one - it's getting a bit dark so I'll have to do that tomorrow. It's the only black spot as far as I can see...

    I hope the photos will tell you if this is the case - I'm concerned the soil level is too high.

    Given the rain we have had here over the last little while I think dry soil is highly unlikely. I won't completely rule it out because whenever I do that in life, somehow that becomes the cause (Murphy's Law and all that) But I do think in the list of possibilities overly-dry soil is pretty unlikely.

    Haven't put any fertilizer on it, as far as I know.

    How do I look for this without looking under the bark? Is it possible?

    Although we're in Canada the climate is very mild (for Canada). I don't think we had any frost after mid-March?

    No black as of yet, except for that one black spot, which I'll get a pic of. I hope it's not anything progressive...

    I'm all about proper drainage - I did my drain tiles recently, but I do wonder if I need to put in some additional drainage in this bed. I think some perforated pipe and some gravel might come in handy, or at least a trench with some coarse sand to help drain the area.

    It looks quite green - but how would one nurse it back to health, aside from getting the soil level right and hoping it will dry out a bit?

    Not at all, thanks again; very much, for your thoughtful and complete reply.
     

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  13. John Hosie

    John Hosie Active Member

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    OK. Vancouver, BC. Right. The area has fairly mild winters, but a lot of rain.

    Soil did look too high. I have most of my JMs either potted or on a hill. In general, I try to plant so the top of the root ball is a little above the soil line. I even take into account that the tree may sink some. (probably will). So keep that in mind.

    Stop watering until you actually start going days without rain. In the pots mine are in, they generally don't have as much room for roots as your ground-planted tree. I don't water more than every other day - except for smaller or more cramped bonsai pots where the tree is going to run through water quickly.

    You might want to dig down in the area near the tree - but not too near - to see if some of the wetness might drain away from the tree.

    I usually have roots showing a little when I plant JMs - partly because it becomes a more attractive bonsai over time - where I can work a rock in between/under the roots so the tree looks more like it is growing up over the rock. When you go for a walk in the woods, what do the bases of trees look like? Most I've seen in natural settings have some of the roots exposed, so it isn't bad to expose the top of the roots - just don't overdo it.

    I think what I was looking for with the additional pic was to see where the black spot was, and to see where the graft was. But now, from what I saw in the pix, it looks kind of like the graft might be close to ground level - maybe 3-4 inches above what was ground level when first planted.

    I'd suggest clearing some of this extra soil away from the base of the tree - to about 1 ft from the trunk - so there isn't too much opportunity for water to puddle around the tree.

    With your drip watering, if possible, you might want to put it on a trigger based on soil wetness rather than on how much rain there has been. The soil should almost dry out between waterings.

    Hope this helps. Let me know if there is anything I've left out. It is after 1AM here in Maryland, and I need to go to work tomorrow and actually be able to think. (I'm a Systems Engineer, and believe it or not, the brain needs to function...)
     
  14. AlastairBird

    AlastairBird Member

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    OK, I have cleared the soil away from the base of the tree and I have dug a drainage ditch away from the tree. Fingers crossed something happens. Our weather has improved over the last few days - sunnyish and warmish - at this rate we'll hit summer some time in August. But I'm not bitter. Yet...

    In terms of new growth, should I be looking for new sprouts off of branches, or new leaves - is it the same as how the tree comes out in the spring?

    Thanks again for all the suggestions.
     
  15. John Hosie

    John Hosie Active Member

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    Believe it or not, you're blessed. Here in the DC area the temperature hit 98, with a Temperature Humidity Index making it "feel like" 110. I was out this morning in the yard for a bit to do a quick watering of my potted JMs and conifers. I came back inside in about half an hour, completely drenched. I have to wait for it to cool down some - maybe down to about 88 - so I can tolerate going into the garage for a bit. Things are MISERABLE here.

    You'll just have to wait and see what happens now that you've done your digging. Hopefully it will have an impact. Here, on the other hand, you have a very brief time between wilt and death of a tree, as the temperature dries the soil so the roots die - quickly. I have two small Trost's Dwarf European White Birches that partially wilted last night, but it looks like I got water to them soon enough to save some of the foliage. Time will tell. It did make me do a helluva lot of stuff outside in the heat, though.

    Keep an eye on bark color. If it darkens, chances are there is a problem. If it loses its green, it is almost guaranteed.

    I am also really hoping and praying that SOMEBODY ELSE will reply with their $0.02. It is kinda humbling to know you're paying attention to my recommendations. I do have experience, but I'm sure there are people out there who have more well-rounded knowledge of this subject.

    And there's one more thing I want to mention. Keep monitoring the wetness of the soil. I don't know exactly how dry you need to let it get, but don't let it go too far. I'm sure that somebody with "real knowledge" knows better than I. I have, however, put a couple of those glass bulbs with sort of a pipette opening at the end stiking into the soil of a particularly valuable tree to keep it from drying out. It only holds about half a cup in the bulb, but it is real easy to check if it is giving up its water, and it does prevent the soil from drying out completely before I get a chance to water again in the heat. I also plant most of my trees now in a mixture between Miracle Grow Tree & Shrub soil and Miracle Grow Moisture Control potting soil. The "Moisture Control" is provided by a substance that absorbs large amounts of water, but also releases it as the soil dries. It helps preventing both too dry and too wet soil.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
  16. AlastairBird

    AlastairBird Member

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    Well, after an evening rainstorm that could only be described as 'biblical' (and not that hot - your weather sounds awful, John) I went outside to find the tree looking...

    ...better...

    Not well, by any means, but where all of the leaves were tightly curled up a couple of days ago, I would say now about 1/3 to 1/2 of the leaves are looking much more like how they should... The soil on the tree must have been just too much with all the rain. Not that last night's rain helped any, but at least there isn't a big lump of wet soil on the roots any more.

    I'll update more in a few days - the forecast over the next little while is actually quite nice. Hardly a humidex of 110 (thank goodness) but a bit less early-spring like and a bit more early-summer like.

    I'm optimistic - Bubbasweet - any news on your tree?
     
  17. Bubbasweet

    Bubbasweet Member

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    Yes funnily enough just yesterday I went outside and a whole bunch of tiny little red sprouts on my tree all over the place have appeared. We just used some fertilizer several days ago. I guess it is alive and well, just looked like h*ll. Can't figure it out. My green Japanese maple also leaves are mostly still green but does just not look REALLY healthy like last year tips of leaves are dry looking and not SUPER green. Why is it so bad this year, is it the weather. I admit though I am really happy now that I am seeing new growth on the red one. I think it may be that we did not fetilize regularely or at all? I do not think we did since we bought them 2 years ago. We used the transplant fertilizer they gave us when they were purchased. He said use it once every few months. We have not done this at all. Maybe that is why they are not really healthy looking. Anyone else got info on the how much and how often on the fertilizing part? Being that they are in pots I guess it makes sense that they might not get what the ground gives and need a boost now and then.
     
  18. Bubbasweet

    Bubbasweet Member

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    All my leaves or alot of them are coming back. They are growing fast. I think it may have been wind torched... It was really windy here for a time in Vancouver. So we will see.
     
  19. Spacehog

    Spacehog Member

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    Cool, glad to hear. I'm hoping my Moonrise has a similar recovery. My problem seems to be different than yours, but it's nice to see that these trees can recover after having a rough patch.
     
  20. John Hosie

    John Hosie Active Member

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    AlastairBird,
    It may have been bad toward the end of June, but it has been torture the last couple of days. Yesterday the ACTUAL temperature was 103 - and about 99% humidity... At least it felt that humid. Hard to tell, though, when my glasses have sweat running down the lenses. Shirt is soaked within about 30 seconds of getting out of the AC - half condensation, and half sweat. I am not having any trouble moving the sprinkler around, though. I don't have to wait for it to go by before grabbing it. There's no difference in the amount of wetness flowing over my body.
     
  21. John Hosie

    John Hosie Active Member

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    Spacehog,
    Full Moon maples have been a problem for me, and I've never been sure why. With Full Moon (Acer Shirasawanum) they have been delicate. The leaves come out and kind of hang there, without fully opening, and suddenly wilt for no apparent reason. Autopsy sometimes shows the graft to have died. But I was also warned by an eBay seller that over-watering can be a major issue, and I can't say he was wrong.
     
  22. AlastairBird

    AlastairBird Member

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    Well, I'm back to where I was before I suggested things were looking better. John, I have a friend who lives in St. Louis and he is now vacationing in San Diego and had to put on a sweater because he wasn't used to the cool weather. Apparently it was quite blissful.
    The weather here has now turned warm and summery. If the tree was too wet before it now has dried out completely. The bark is still green below the surface, so I'm still hoping for a recovery - Bubbasweet, what type of fertilizer did you use on your JM?
    I'm flummoxed, but I'm wondering if the topsoil we brought in had something in it? We had a lot of fungus and mushrooms in it this spring.
     
  23. Bubbasweet

    Bubbasweet Member

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    Just the transplant stuff from Dykhoffs...
     
  24. John Hosie

    John Hosie Active Member

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    I had gotten several bare-root red leaf Japanese maples and white birch recently. All the leaves were drying up when they got here - from two different sources on ebay. I was pretty upset. But it has been about a month now, and all but one have leaves again. So as long as there is green, there is hope.

    I would avoid fertilizer until after the trees have a chance to recover some.

    Bags of top soil have not done well for me with JMs. They tend to be to "thick" and don't drain well. I started working with JMs about 5-6 years ago or so, and found things like top soil and composted manure really were a problem. I can't swear that they killed the trees I lost, but they were at least participants in the process. And, yeah, they did produce some fungus and/or mushrooms that were not typical for this area. However, now they're popping up all over the place. I'll attach a couple of pix. You may be surprised.

    I know most of the growers I buy from use a soil mix that may include a fair amount of top soil, but their main focus is lots of organic matter - particularly rotted shredded mulch. It makes the soil a lot lighter, with lots of room for roots to grow and lots of air spaces. I almost hate transplanting them to the bonsai pots I use, because I don't come close to being able to produce the soil they put in the pots. That's why I tend to go with the bagged Miracle Grow soils - a mix of the moisture control and tree&shrub soil mixes. I also throw some mulch in the bottom of the pot. For non-bonsai pots, I had things pretty well layered, gravel, sand, mulch, and charcoal, with the soil mix coming above them. From having worked with tropical fish, I know that charcoal tends to pull ammonia out of water when there's a bacterial bloom, and allows the water to stablize a little better.

    Keep the soil away from the soil line on the tree. Regular tree bark (above ground) lacks a chemical that is in roots that keeps bugs and some microbes from eating their way into the tree under ground. But when the soil comes up on the bark, it will often kill the tree pretty quickly.

    I don't know if you've worked with composting before, but when you stir the compost, before long it heats up a whole bunch. This is because there's a bacterial bloom caused by oxygen getting to the organic matter in the soil. The bacterial actually generate the heat. The same thing happens when you use a soil mix that has quite a bit of organic matter, and water is sort of a catalyst, because the bacteria tend to grow more when the soil isn't dry.

    I know I've run across somebody on eBay who sells JMs and is from Southern California, but I can't remember who it was. You might want to check there and see who it might be. They may have moved to Amazon, though.
     
  25. michelle winkel

    michelle winkel Member

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    Hi All, From reading all the posts, I can't determine of my young japanese maple has the wilt disease or is simply sunburnt and underwatered ( it was a bit neglected last month here in Victoria BC). I appreciate your help!
     

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