Black Arborvitae Question

Discussion in 'Gymnosperms (incl. Conifers)' started by jacquot, Feb 12, 2005.

  1. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I have a house that came with a line of Black Arborvitae (10' tall) on a property line with a close neighbor. It provides us with privacy for our terrace in the summer. Last winter was particularly severe here with snow, wind, unusual cold, etc., and everything suffered, including these. They thinned out considerably, some areas dying back, especially at the bottom which sheilded us from the neighbor's windows. I'm concerned that they will not fill out again at the lower/middle levels. Is there any way to encourage growth in the lower/mid areas?

    4 years ago my arborist topped them saying it would strengthen the trunks, and had me remove the ties to stakes when they were planted. They were cutting into the trunks. The tops then became very dense. I'm afraid that any pruning will just make permanent holes in this natural 'fence.'

    I'd hate to have to replace them, but if necessary in the future, we will. We have open/part shade, and not too many things are good possibilities. I'm careful about shaking off heavy snows, etc. but last year when we were away we got ice and then snow, and they really suffered.

    Suggestions and advice would be very welcomed. This is a line about 50' long, and whatever goes there can't get too wide. Manhattan Euonomous are popular here, too, and I know they are very amenable to pruning. I'm on Long Island Sound, in a zone 6/7, perfect for my Japanes maple collection!
     
  2. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    By black arborvitae I assume you mean Thuja occidentalis 'Nigra'. I'd like to hear an explanation from the "arborist" how topping was going to strengthen their trunks - or strengthen them in any other way. They were apparently damaged by weather conditions, on top of which - so to speak - they were then promptly decapitated, forcing them to draw on stored energy reserves to regrow new tops.

    Trees are living things, just like us. "A Tree Hurts, Too". If you wanted them to fill in, good cultivation (mulching, irrigation, whatever was required) would have been the direction to go in.
     
  3. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    The arborist referred to them as black arborvitae. He did the topping 4 years ago, and the damage was last winter. I've been fertilizing and water when we had prolonged dry spells, but last summer was pretty wet. I guess my question now is whether with proper care, they can fill out again, or do they simply not grow that way. Looking at them through last growing season, I would think they do not.
     
  4. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Jacquot:

    I think you will be better served to show us some pictures
    of your trees. I am not going to write that the trees will not
    produce growth in the areas where you want them to and I
    will not write that they cannot. I do know that with a serious
    hands on effort for a sustained period of time that you can
    help to initiate growth in the lower and middle parts of the
    tree but your work is cut out for you as it will take several
    years to bring these trees back, if it is possible for these trees.
    If it was just cold that hurt your trees we can deal with that
    but I suspect you had something else as your main culprit.
    The cold weather may have just enhanced the original damage
    that was done. I also would like to know why the trunks
    needed to be strengthened. Let's see some photos and perhaps
    some more information on the history of these trees as well
    as the your cultural practices since the damage so we can
    better assess a "game plan" for you.

    Jim
     
  5. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Thanks, Jim. I'll take some photos and post them. I've also had a contract with the arborist over the last 4 years to inspect and spray as needed during the season, and they had noted spider mites fairly regularly for these trees and sprayed for them. But it was after last winter that they seemed to suffer. I appreciate any advice for encouraging them.

    They were staked when planted, and my guess is they went in at about 5-6' tall. The arorist said to cut the ties, which were definitely cutting into the wood. Doing this made them more suceptible to bending in snow, and he recommended the topping saying it would strengthen the trunks against this. When we were away at Christmas '03, I came back to find many bent to the ground. I worked with them, and while they are straight again, but definitely not as full. I fertilized one year with stakes--which I have read since is not the best idea--and since then only with Hollytone, as recommended on the packaging. I am pretty careful not to over do it.

    I have hostas planted at the base of them, and run a soaker hose through them which I use as needed.
     
  6. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Sounds like they are rootbound. It is not normal for them to be falling over. Thin crowns + falling over might also indicate root rot, I suppose.
     
  7. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I was told, and have observed similar plants in the area that bend very easily with the weight of snow, that this is a problem with these trees. The trunks seem extemely flexible.

    I took a photo this morning that shows the thicker growth at the top, which took place after they were cut, and the thinner lower areas. The photo is a little dark, but shows the state of things. I hope the attachment comes through OK, as I don't see it in the preview.
     

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  8. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I know about what snow can do to some of my
    Conifers at a higher elevation. Almost every
    year I lose a couple of Digger Pines that will
    lodge over almost prostrate to the ground. If
    I cannot adequately stake them to once again
    stand straight I have to cut them down. My
    Atlas Cedars for several years took a beating
    until I sturdily staked them.

    I'll be honest, I expected these to look worse.
    Sometimes in spite of ourselves or contrary
    to what we really wanted to accomplish we
    end up making the right decision. I think as
    a neighbor break (similar to a wind break but
    with neighbors we can get noise that we do
    not want to hear, sights we do not want to see
    and it give us, perhaps them also, more privacy)
    you did not really want these trees to become
    much taller than they already are. Generally,
    in ancient times when we would dead head or
    top a tree we wanted to encourage root growth
    as opposed to strengthen the trunks. For snow
    that will force these trees to lodge over, I guess
    the reasoning by the arborist was not so off
    base after all. Yes, the topping will force root
    production as well as making the trunks less
    pliable. It is extreme of us to have to do things
    in this manner but in some cases the effect it
    can create afterwards may be beneficial for us
    in the long run.

    As long as these trees were left alone then you
    would get height on them but at the expense of
    the middle and lower growth. Now that the size
    of these trees has been determined let's deal with
    the card hand we now have been dealt. Now, so
    much comes down to what you want for the shape
    to be of these trees. Do you want them to become
    a nice 8-10' hedge? Do you want to leave them
    like they are for size and shape? I will say that
    you will want to continue on a spray program
    for mites for a few years. Probably a spray for
    you there in late April, early May and if you get
    some discolored areas about August, another spray.
    I think another issue is how much hands on work
    can you do for these trees or do you plan to hire
    someone to manage these trees for you? I think a
    good cleaning up of the dead areas will help you
    and then you can decide what you want to do with
    these trees as they will not be a problem to block
    off the tops, square or round up the sides a little
    and then force them to either grow into each other
    to form a hedge or square them enough to let in
    air between them and wait for the middle areas
    to fill in. They will fill in once you block off the
    tops and keep them flat topped or round topped
    if you prefer for a while. I've had to that here for
    our Podocarpus gracilior. That is what the misses
    wanted and she is happy with the squared heads,
    full bodied, maintained look of her trees. I have
    to shear them with the hedge trimmers twice a
    year here to maintain the appearance she wants
    from them though as we get more growth spurts
    in a growing season than you will get where you
    are.

    There are pros and cons to whatever you decide.
    If you let them form to become a hedge you get
    more privacy but the trees will become tougher
    to get good coverage of the mite spray and if you
    ever get a fungus disease that hits the needles you
    will wish you did not have a hedge. You can square
    shape the trees which will be easier to spray, give
    more air to the trees which will lesson your insect
    infestation, cut down on the incidence of any needle
    fungus as well as keep the trees shapely and neat
    looking but you will be able to see your neighbors
    some through the uncovered spaces between the
    trees.

    Tell us what you want to do with these. If you do
    want the height kept under control plus help to fill
    in the middles you will not want to use fertilizers
    high in Nitrogen. A 10-20-20 or a 5-10-10 well
    watered in will be good enough in the Spring and
    a dose of 0-10-10 in early Fall. A fertilizer with
    about 6% Calcium and Sulfur would work well
    for these trees.

    Jim
     
  9. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    First, thank you very much, Jim.

    I would prefer a hedge for maximum privacy, but the squared cut, which I assume means perhaps a foot or so of space between the trees, might work. I'm in an old neighborhood close to NYC and the yards are quite small. This is my only really close neighbor, and the people here before us put these in. I might have made another choice, but when these were full, they were beautiful.

    I can handle the remedial care myself and would enjoy it. I spend a lot of time in the garden on purpose. Fertilizing is not a problem, nor pruning, although the tops might have to be done by the arborist. I will definitely keep on a sraying program as I don't want to lose anything to insects or fungus.

    For pruning, do you mean cutting back to the trunk whatever is dead and let's say, in poor state of health? Will this regrow from old wood? If there are branches with some tip growth only, might they fill in, or would pruning back be good for that, too?
     
  10. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Well, the hedge would be my third option as it pretty much ruins
    the "look" of the trees. Having one foot spacings is not going to
    help all that much either. What I would want to know now is where
    on the trees do you want to see the most coverage, the middles or
    the lower portions as the lower portions may not ever come back
    for you?

    Even if you made a hedge out of these trees, the tops will be the
    same height and you will get some of the middles to grow back
    depending on how much light they will get (they will grow back
    some no matter but they may not come back in full to give your
    hedge better balance).

    I would not cut back to the trunk unless the branch is completely
    dead. Part of the problem you have with the lower branches is
    that most of them are some of the oldest wood on your tree.
    Now they are getting the least amount of sunlight and they
    will brown easier than in earlier years. If you want growth
    to come back to them you have to provide a means for them
    to get more sunlight, otherwise it may not matter what you
    do for cutting as they may not respond for you. The areas
    where you have tip growth and no growth in between on the
    branches is a judgement call. Do you cut the limbs halfway
    hoping you will get more growth to fill in or do you leave
    the limbs alone? Unless you provide more light to the lower
    extremities of the trees you may just be better to leave the
    limbs as they are.

    Continual cutting of the tops with some shaping of the sides
    will provide more sunlight to the lower portions of the tree.
    The signal we send to the tree when we prune the tops once
    or twice a year tells the rest of the tree to send out new
    growth. It is the tree that will tell itself to fill in the middles.
    The lowest portions of the tree will be the least likely to give
    rise to new growth.

    I would suggest you talk with your arborist and give him or
    her some ideas as to what you really want from these trees.
    It seems to me at this point that you would rather have a
    hedge for privacy than have the trees shaped to make them
    look all about the same, neat and manicured. If it were me
    I would opt for the trees to be cleaned up and shaped. The
    blocking of the trees would be my second choice and the
    hedge would be my last resort.

    Here is an analysis of your old situation. Actually with
    these trees prone to lodging your arborist did you a favor
    by cutting the tops of these. I've seen 75' tall bark beetle
    killed Ponderosa Pines fall right through cabins after a
    heavy snow. If you had let these trees get up to 40 feet
    tall whose house do you risk them hitting? Either way
    it is a loser for you.

    The tops look good to me as they are. I think a blocked off
    top and squared look will not do much for these trees. I
    like the rounded tops much better. I think a good cleaning
    of the dead areas and some pruning where these trees are
    growing into each other to give more light and more air
    movement is what I would do if the trees were mine.

    Talk things over with someone you have confidence in
    on the scene that can help give you ideas. Mention the
    hedge to your arborist as to initiate the hedge may mean
    that you will have to take a foot or more off the top. You
    are looking at no less than a 5 year project to clean up the
    trees, cut the tops every year and see how these trees will
    respond to your want to have them grow into each other and
    fill out. Then the maintenance of the hedge will require some
    time of you every year, sometimes twice a year just to square
    the front and back to make the hedge look neat. The sides
    are the least worry for shaping for a hedge at this point. If
    the hedge does not work out then you will want to go to the
    second option but once you start a yearly cutting of the tops
    it will take years for these trees to have the rounded tops
    again.

    Jim
     
  11. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Thanks again Jim.

    Perhaps I misunderstood the designations, I don't know. These are planted perhaps on 4' centers, so having individual trees separated does not seem like an option. I like the look of them as both individual naturally shaped trees, but they are also grown into each other, and hence a 'hedge.' I do not want a shaped regular rectangle block type hedge, even if properly tapered. I want something more natural, which is why we shaped the tops as we did the first time.

    I will ask a couple of arborists about them, the persons I have used and then their competitors here, who I've wanted to talk to anyway. If there is hope to have them become progressively better, I'm for it. If they are just going to get worse, that's something else, and I'd have to really think about what to do

    They get morning sun, that's about it. My house is a bit uphill, to the south east, as is my ancient White Oak. After mid day they get no direct sunlight, except very late oblique sun. Probably something with more resilient growth would have been better chosen, but I'm willing to give this a try.

    David
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi David:

    If your photo is representative then you already have
    the equivalent of a hedge row of trees. The height
    of the trees has already been established. Now you
    would like more middle growth to fill these trees
    out more. For you to get more lower growth to
    cover up the windows of your neighbor will, more
    than likely, result in your having to cut the tops
    again probably down to about the lower roof level
    height of your neighbors house or lower. You will
    want to clean out the dead and browned areas in the
    middles as well as clean up the lower levels of each
    tree until in time the areas you want to have more
    growth start to do so. It may mean that each year
    you will have to cut the tops again. When we fertilize
    with any Nitrogen we can expect top growth which is
    not what your preference is. You want middle and
    lower growth on these trees. So, if you fertilize with
    any Nitrogen you have to force these trees to produce
    growth in the areas where you want them to, not
    where the trees will want to produce growth.
    You have to force the change in the trees growth
    habit to get what you want. You know how long
    it took for you to get the rounded heads on these
    trees after they were topped, so you should have
    an idea as to how long it will take to get your trees
    filled out, filled in and then you can start to leave
    them alone for a year or two prior to the next
    cleaning up.

    I think an ISA arborist that knows Conifers is the
    person you need to talk to. Give him or her an
    accurate estimation on what you want such as
    a hedge row as in the present case or a bona fide
    hedge in which the trees will all be cut down to
    about 5-6 feet tall or less, cleaned up and then we
    monitor the growth hoping these trees will respond
    to our desire for them to grow into each other. Yet
    at the same time produce more middle and lower
    growth. That can only be attained by cutting the
    tops often.

    I prefer hedge rows or a Conifer that will do
    what I want it to without a lot of maintenance but
    "green" does all the talking ("green talks, the rest
    walk") and if that is what the owner wants then it
    is our job to deliver as best we can unless their
    wishes are unrealistic and we are steadfast enough
    to tell them so. In your case of a hedge, I think your
    desire is realistic but to get the lower growth to come
    back in full is not so doable unless we really force
    the issue with these trees and then there is no
    guarantee what we want will come about to our
    or your satisfaction. The hard part will be getting
    adequate renewal of the lower growth, not the
    middles. In order to get more lower growth to
    shut out your seeing your neighbors windows then
    we almost have to start over from scratch with these
    trees. Even cutting the tops down to the height of
    the neighbors windows will not be out of bounds.
    Also, when we make the determination to create
    a hedge these trees will look much worse for a
    long while before they look any better than they
    are right now.

    Perhaps Paul, Ron B, Mario and Chris for some
    will either come back into this thread or come in
    now and share their ideas. They will not like the
    hedge issue as opposed to a hedge row any more
    than I do but if they've done it before they will
    know what I am trying to tell you.

    Jim
     
  13. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Yew

    I'd replace them with yew.
     
  14. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Yes, I'm starting to agree with that suggestion. I have one Yew, in fairly deep shade that is dense, lovely and large, but other varieties might be appropriate to the situation. I think some are more fastigiate, and I like the red berries, too.

    I have a little more time to decide which route to go.

    David
     
  15. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Yew rang

    Taxus x media 'Hicksii' probably the most available, 20' tall and comes in both male and female forms so if you like the berries you might want to select a female or a good slender fruiting cultivar like 'Flushing'. Some good things about Taxus are that they will do well in low light and can be maintained in a hedge form indefinately. 'Sentinalis' sounds good, 8' x 2'.
     

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