Identity of Unknown Meconostigma Philodendron

Discussion in 'Araceae' started by asj2008, May 8, 2009.

  1. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    I wonder whether they ever figured out the identity of this gorgeous aroid that's wandering over in the NY Botanical Garden. I remember Julius said the NYC Botanical Garden staff was looking into it, but then, nothing.
     

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  2. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Wish I knew! Have you asked Julius and Leland lately? If it is from Brazil (which is likely) Marcus Nadruz at the Rio de Janeiro Botanical Garden might be able to help. If you need his email address send me a private note and I'll give it to you.
     
  3. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    Let me shoot Julius an email first. He was the one who actually started trying to ID this awhile back, wanted a larger res image of it.

    The specimen is planted near the middle of a display, so there was no way for me to get close enough to take a pic of the stem in detail.
     
  4. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I'm sending this link to both Leland and Marcus. Maybe one will know.
     
  5. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    I found the email about it. Julius had been interested in it because he was thinking it was a P. Williamsii, while Tom said it might be P. undulatum.

    In the garden, it simply says "Philodendron sp"

    A curator from the NY Botanical Garden came back and gave these details, which eliminated P. undulatum...

    The Philodendron in question is from our records 1048/93A Philodendron
    species from the St.Croix Botanical Garden

    The plant was received from:

    Mr.CF
    St.George Village Botanic Garden
    127 Estate, St. George.
    Fredricksted

    St.Croix 08841-0727
    United States Virgin Islands

    There appears to be no other data in the accession record. Perhaps Fran
    could provide some more information since the plant was accessioned before
    my arrival at the garden.
    As for the character of the squamules/spines on the stem they are flattened
    and about 1/8-1/4" long and are slightly flexible towards their tip. They
    ring the circumference of the stem and are found along the base of the
    petiole scar. They are light brown in the immature stage and are persistent
    along the entire stem of the plant which now is about 4" in diameter. I will
    take a photo of the squamules this week and send it along for your analysis.
    Please let me know what other images of the plant that you might need as I
    can photograph them as well.
    Sincerely

    Curator of Glasshouse Collections
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2009
  6. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I know the biggest aroid collector on St. Croix! I'll send him the link.
     
  7. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    Well, lots of emails flying between Julius, Tom, and Leland on this one...it could be some hybrid or a variant of P. undulatum. They're waiting on any bloom from that plant that would cinch the ID.
     
  8. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Yep, that and some DNA. Eduardo was working on gathering DNA from many Brazilian species but as you likely know left the government of Brazil and now is working for a private collection. He is very pleased with his new work but lots of things we may have learned are now on hold.

    At times I hate the idea of all the new botany students going strictly with DNA work since we'll eventually loose all the field botanists. I am far from being an expert but I've met a couple of students from the University of Arkansas and some of them wouldn't know a Philodendron from a daisy unless that had the DNA strand to check it against there computer records! But at time DNA can be very useful.

    I haven't heard back from Conrad yet but he usually only answers email from his work Monday through Friday. Maybe Monday night I'll hear something back. He sent a Meconostigma from the garden in St. Croix but it is still too small to try to determine if it might be this one. I'll have to go try to find it tomorrow and see if there is any resemblance.
     
  9. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure you've already realized this plant does bear a resemblance to Philodendron speciosum. But as the note I posted on another thread from Julius states, there appears to be more than a few species that bear a resemblance to "speciosum".
     
  10. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    This note came from Conrad Fleming in St. Croix this morning. It really doesn't tell exactly what the plant is but it does explain where it came from. Conrad likely donated it but can't be certain.

    "Julius wrote me months ago regarding this Meconostigma at New York that came originally from me. I can't say that I have any clear recollection as to what it may be. It certainly does look like undulatum. The only thing wrong with that theory is that, as far as I know, I never did distribute undulatum. I do have that sp., which I collected decades ago in the northern reaches of Mato Grosso, Brazil and I do still have that one plant in cultivation, but as far as I know I never had extras for distribution. But who knows, maybe I did! I more incline to the theory that I gave NYBG a cutting of Philodendron "minarum" (this was the name on the label at Fairchild), which, I think, is quite similar to paludicola, which is a sp. I've seen in cultivation but do not currently have (I got it from a nursery in Miami, but for some unaccountable reason, it died soon after arrival here). I do still have that Fairchild "minarum" in my collection and its leaves are certainly not as divided as the plant in the photo. So, there you have it. If you can figure that mess out, you're better than I will ever be!"
     
  11. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    Thanks Steve...yeah, no one can seem to figure it out.

    As to P. "minarum", the only thing I get back on it is some plant sold in indonesia.
     
  12. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Another of the plant mysteries that can drive us crazy! I'll be at Fairchild in September and will do my best to ask the curator if they have any record of that name.
     
  13. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I asked both botanist Eduardo Gonçalves and botanist Marcus Nadruz in Brazil to look at your photo. As you know, both of these guys are among the very best at identifying Brazilian aroids. These are their responses.

    Dear Steve and Marcus,

    To me, it is Philodendron petraeum, which is common in boulders and limestone cliffs of Southwestern Brazil and Paraguay. I am not sure if this form (that has more divergent posterior lobes and smaller lateral lobules than P. undulatum) will prove to be the same as P. undulatum (as Simon Mayo pointed out), but considering that the region is poorly known, I am still considering them different. I am waiting for a DNA study to be sure.

    Very best wishes,

    Eduardo.




    Hi Steve,

    This species appears to be a hybrid of P. undulatum with some other species that do not know. Who knows, Eduardo could help?

    Best wishes,

    Marcus

    Obviously there is still going to be confusion on this Meconostigma!
     
  14. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    Great!

    Eduardo seems pretty sure about the ID, so it seems that this plant may be a cryptic species placed currently within P. undulatum until such time as DNA studies either separate it out as a species or confines it as a variant within P. undulatum.

    Here's the original reference to Philodendron petraeum....

    Philodendron petraeum Chod. & Visch.
    in Bull. Soc. Bot. Geneve, 1919, Ser. II. xi. 296 (1920).
     
  15. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Do you know if the NYC staff has considered taking a DNA sample of the specimen? Once Eduardo has the results of his test then the markers could be compared and perhaps the mystery better clarified.
     
  16. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    Well, a lot happened via email between Leland and myself.

    I sent that tentative ID to leland, julius, and Tom, and almost immediately leland said that he had just found an aroid on Flickr that he thought might be the mature form of the plant in question.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/23630893@N08/3420593314/

    The funny thing is the photographer of that plant is one whom I had just contacted last week about some images of his that had been labeled P. undulatum.

    I emailed the photographer turdusprosopis and he said he would take more pics of the aroid when he next visited that area (Otamendi INTA, in the Paraná river delta, In Argentina). He said the plant grew wild there.

    With regards to DNA sampling of the specimen in NYC. I suppose they could send a sample over to Eduardo, but I doubt they would do the DNA testing themselves. I used to do genetic engineering over at Rutgers University, and that thing cost money.
     
  17. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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  18. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    And Mayo's comments about it:

    Mayo treats P. petraeum as an "incompletely known species", with the type being in Paraguay.

    He says:

    "I have not studied the type material of any of these taxa, which except for var petraeum is known only from sterile plants. Tyhe species has sagittate leaves, a rupicolous habit, the spathe as long or longer than the peduncle and a 6 locular ovary according to the description. In var tobatiense the leaves are larger, up to 50 cm long and 40 cm broad. Var triangulare and valenzuelae both have smaller glaucous leaves which are traiangular in the former and relatively narrow in the latter.

    The avialble information suggests that P. petraeum is a distinct species. since it does not appear to fit any other described taxon. Though superficially similar to P. corcovadense, Chodat and Vischer's fig 262 shows stems with VERY contracted internodes. These taxa are cited in Croat and Mount's recent treatment of Paraguayan Aracea"
     
  19. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully Eduardo's DNA tests will settle the situation.
     
  20. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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  21. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    What language is the original in? The Meconostigma characteristics do not appear to be well displayed in the photo (better in the drawing) although I have no doubt of your research. Too bad Eduardo, Simon or someone else hasn't posted a vouchered photo somewhere.

    Having read my share of originally published documents (pre 1960) I've always found that many of them don't offer nearly as much characteristic information as does the work of today's best aroid botanists.
     
  22. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    it's in french....the drawing does show the stem, which does seem meconostigma-like.

    this article also has the first descriptions of the "species", in latin.

    I think the leaf shape is fairly similar to the unknown aroid above; a translation of the latin should allow us to compare it, but I figure Eduardo already knows that.
     
  23. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Beth Campbell who is on this forum (Lorax) is great at translating Latin. Maybe you could send that to her and get her to translate it for you.
     
  24. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    I made an appointment to visit the aroid again next thursday at the NY botanical garden to take more detailed pics.

    The problem is that the plant is in the middle of a garden, far from the path, and I was not able to get good pics of it 4 years ago.

    Now, i'll be able to document it more thoroughly after they gave me permission to go closer.
     
  25. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Great. I'll be anxious to see them.
     

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