Mystery plant from China

Discussion in 'Plants: Identification' started by frankco, Sep 2, 2010.

  1. frankco

    frankco Active Member

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    Okay, this is a really hard one. At least I think so.

    This plant came from China at a Tissue Culture convention. At a booth they were handing these plants out without saying what they are. I took a piece of the plant and put it into a pot to grow. It may be too young to identify but I’m anxious to figure out what this plant is.

    Right now it’s ony 2 to 3 inches tall. I has red stems and dark green pointed leaves. If anyone can figure out what this plant is, first I will be truly amazed, second I would be very grateful.

    Thanks,
    Frank
     

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  2. saltcedar

    saltcedar Rising Contributor 10 Years

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  3. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Hopefully not carrying a serious new pest or pathogen.
     
  4. frankco

    frankco Active Member

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    It might be a type of Anthurium. Good guess. I'm going to find some images of Anthurium in tissue culture to see if they resemble this one.
    Thanks Saltcedar. I figured if anyone could guess what it is you would.

    The shape of the leaves look correct for some types of Anthurium. I might have to wait until it gets a little bigger.

    Hi Ron, The plant was in tissue culture and subcultured over over a year before I took a piece out.

    With plant tissue culture a small piece of a plant, meristem, apical bud, auxiliary bud, small shoot etc. is placed aseptically in a vessel. The piece of the plant is disinfected under sterile conditions and then placed in the vessel. There can be no pests, bacteria, fungus or other critters within the vessel. If there is, the culture will be ruined within a matter of days or a couple of weeks. Until I determine what type of plant it is it will not leave my little lab.

    Thanks,
    Frank
     
  5. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Yes, I am familiar with tissue culture and how a pest or pathogen can explode inside the lab. One lab I visited as part of a tour once had a Hellacious problem with thrips getting all over the plantlets. For a time they could not figure out how it was getting past the sanitation routine. Since the lab is still at it I assume this issue was eventually resolved.
     
  6. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    Looks very much like TC plantlets of Anthurium andreaum (the red stems give it away) - the fun will be in discovering which cultivar you've got there, because there are some really stunning ones.
     
  7. frankco

    frankco Active Member

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    Hi Ron,

    I wasn't sure if you were familar with plant tissue culture. Generally not many people are but on this forum I think the percentage is much higher.

    Trips usually enter the tissue culture vessels from the outside going in. I've never heard of a case where they started from within a vessel. Of course, sometimes that would be a difficult thing to determine.

    The tell tale signs are easy to spot. They leave nice, thin little trails of bacteria as they walk across the top of the media inside the jars. The trails usually start at the edge of the jars as they climb down and travel around, sometimes missing the plant altogether. A good indication that they passed through the enclosure and didn't start from the plant.

    Being as small as they are they can easily slip past most enclosures no matter how tight they are. Vessels that are hermetically sealed will keep them out but they are not used very often. Luckily I haven't experienced that problem yet. They are very hard to get rid of once they show there ugly head. Fumigation is about the only way to remove them.
     
  8. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    To be an Anthurium it must have these features:

    1) A collective vein running very near the blade margin (edge) that can either completely encircle the leaf or at least partially encircle the leaf, normally from the 3rd primary lateral leaf blade (counting from the top). Collective veins are very distinctive and will be easy to see.

    2) It must have a geniculum. A geniculum can be found at the very top of the petiole just below the point where the petiole and blade join. The geniculum will have the appearance of a slight bump that is often difficult to see in a juvenile plant and this one is juvenile. Sometimes you can feel it if you run your fingers up the petiole and check just beneath the blade. The geniculum allows the leaf blade to rotate to better orient itself to light.

    Some plants have one or the other of these features but an Anthurium by definition must have both.

    From the photos I can see neither but to make a declaration it isn't an Anthurium without examining the plant would not be wise. If you were to post a very tight closeup of the entire leaf showing the leaf margin sharply the collective vein can be easily seen.

    This could be an aroid but there many plants in SE Asia that are now coming into tissue culture that are unknown to science. Just this week two of the world's top taxonomists told me they expect the number of aroid species to jump from the current 3800 hundred or so species to around 6000 as a result of new discoveries. New species are being published every week.

    By the way, no Anthurium is native to Asia. There are many imports that have been set free but all Anthurium are Neotropical species found naturally only in southern Mexico, Central America, South America with a few species in the Caribbean.

    Steve
     
  9. frankco

    frankco Active Member

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    Hi Photopro,

    Thanks for the detailed description of an Anthurium.

    Here's a close-up of a leaf. Hopefully it's good enough. I don't see the vein around the edge.

    Edit: Actually there looks to be a small vein running around the edge.
     

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  10. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I blew your photo up by 300% and cannot see a collective vein nor a geniculum. I have to stress the collective vein can be difficult to see in a juvenile plant and this one is obviously juvenile.

    Here is the definition of a collective vein:

    collective vein

    A submarginal vein that lies parallel to and near the leaf margin, into which the primary lateral veins run. The collective vein may be a continuation of a primary lateral leaf vein often the lowermost or the uppermost basal vein and may encircle or partially encircle the leaf. Observed in Anthurium, Syngonium, Alocasia, Colocasia, Xanthosoma, Pycnospatha, Arisaema, Protarum, some Amorphophallus and other genera.


    I am including two photos showing the submarginal (not at but near the edge) of two Anthurium. One has the collective vein extending from the third primary lateral leaf vein while the other shows the collective vein running completely around the leaf. Both forms are common.

    Here is the definition of a geniculum:

    geniculum

    A wrist-like organ located at the apex of the petiole. The geniculum allows a leaf to rotate and orient itself in order to control to a degree the sunlight which it receives. Unique to Anthurium, Spathiphyllum and a select few others among aroid genera, the term is also used similarly in a few other families.


    Look at the photo of a typical geniculum and you will see the petiole often (but not always) makes a slight bend at the point where the petiole and blade join. Again, the geniculum is often difficult to see in a juvenile plant but in most cases can be felt if you run your fingers across the upper petiole. It will feel like a slight swelling and is often rough.

    From your photo I would be very skeptical if this plant were an Anthurium since both features are found in all Anthurium species.
     

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  11. frankco

    frankco Active Member

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    Thanks again Photopro for such a detailed description. I'm truly impressed.

    Yes, after reading your post I am very skeptical too that it is an Anthurium. It definitely does not have a geniculum so I guess that rules out Anthuriums.

    This might have to be a wait and see thing. It's growing fairly quickly so perhaps it won't be long before it can be identified. I'm hoping it's not some common bean or other plant.

    I did notice that it has roots starting to grow above the soil line, up the stalk. Not sure if that's any clue or not.

    If I can't identify it I'll post another picture when the plant has gained some size.

    Thanks again Photoro and thank you everyone for your help.
    Frank
     
  12. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Glad to help. The geniculum may not become apparent until the plant grows more but the collective vein should be visible now.

    You will certainly have a better chance of identifying the plant once it shows more maturity. I understand the anxiousness of wanting to know the species because I do it all the time as well. In most cases I just have to wait for more characteristics to develop. Right now I have four plants that are almost positively members of the larger group Monstereae but I don't know if they are in the genus Monstera (Neotropical) or an Asian species which could be any of 7 completely different genera. Only time and growth will tell. The crazy part for me is I see all of them sold on eBay all the time as a Monstera or a Philodendron and being able to see just a few basic criteria now I can tell the sellers don't know what they are selling. They are just grabbing names out of the air.

    This happens because so many new aroid species are being discovered every year. Two of the top botanists in the field told me earlier this week they expect the total number of aroid genera to jump from the current 3800 or so species to around 6,000 in a few more years and many are being found in SE Asia.

    None of these are in the genus Philodendron as is often claimed but the true genus remains a mystery.

    Growers often jump to conclusions without facts and in my case even Dr. Croat at the Missouri Botanical Garden nor Peter Boyce in SE Asia can ID any of them in the juvenile form. If the two top experts in the field can't figure out what they are then how can any grower slap a name on them and just continue to spread confusion? I see it all the time and growers on many forums "fight" about who is right all the time.

    In most cases all of them are clearly wrong since the photos they post don't match up to any scientific description so they are likey undescribed species.

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  13. frankco

    frankco Active Member

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    Hi Steve,

    I got into tissue culture about 3 years ago. I just happen to like plants and this was an extension of my hobby, growing and propagating plants. Now tissue culture has pretty much taken over my life: -) I really enjoy it.

    The plant is question was a gift from a company who sells plant tissue culture supplies. They were at the convention in China and were given the plant at one of the booths. The lab technician stuck the plant in the culture room, multiplied it but never took a piece out to grow to identify it. After receiving the plant I told him I’d try to find out what it is. I took a piece of the plant out of the vessel and got it acclimated a month ago. I’m sure I’ll have to wait a few more months before it reveals itself.

    I love Aroids by the way. There are some real interesting and beautiful ones. I don’t have any at the moment but I would love to give a go at tissue culturing them. One of these day.

    Take care,
    Frank

    Thanks again for your helps. I learned a few things in the process.
     
  14. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Frank, most are easily tissue cultured. The only one I am aware of that has refused to be put into TC is Philodendron spiritus-sancti. There are only 6 known plants left in Brazil and all are on the same farm so they can be protected. We (the IAS, not me) sell a cutting every year in Miami at the annual meeting of the International Aroid Society and it often brings several thousand dollars since the plant is so rare. I know of several attempts in Thailand to do it but so far all have been failures and the original specimen was lost each time. I own many rare aroids but not this one! I know for certain if it can be tissue cultured each plant will bring a high price provided they can be raised to near maturity. So there is a challenge for you!

    You can read more about the plant here: http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Philodendron spiritus-sancti PC.html

    Chances are you will need to give your plant no less than a year, probably more since the characteristics that define the species often do not reveal themselves until the plant is mature. To be absolutely sure of the species of an aroid often requires you to see the inflorescence of the plant so the sexual characteristics can be seen. But then you must also deal with natural variation since the mature leaves of many aroids take on totally different shapes. Go to my website and look in the lower left column for an explanation of how variation and ontogeny work in aroids.

    http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Natural variation within aroid and plant species.html

    Good luck with your efforts.

    Steve
     

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