After being involved in a few threads dealing with Citrus being grown indoors I think it is time for someone to ask some open questions and let all of you join in and discuss the following.. How many Citrus and what types of Citrus are true grown from seed? Why is it that Citrus grown indoors have a propensity to not produce fruit? Why is high humidity a rather serious, potentially harmful consequence to growing Citrus indoors? What is the difference between a wholesale nursery and a retail nursery for buying Citrus? Why is it that Citrus from US East Coast nurseries or nurseries East of the Rocky Mountains cannot ship Citrus into California? What are some nursery sources for Citrus in Canada? Why are California nurseries hesitant to ship Citrus into Canada? Which Citrus can be grown outdoors in the ground or grown outdoors in a container in Canada? Which Citrus can be grown indoors and still produce fruit in Canada? What prerequisites must apply in order for the tree to set fruit? The above questions can be expanded upon as I do not plan to be the moderator for this thread. I may come back in and post some of my own views at a later date. For now, I think a general and perhaps inclusive thread dealing with Citrus, being grown principally in Canada and elsewhere also, may be something worthwhile for us to openly discuss.
Citrus in Canada The experts in this are Bob and Verna Duncan of Sydney BC. They have been growing numerous varieties of citrus at their home on Vancouver Island. I have had success growing meyer lemons outside. Lemons do not require a great deal of heat to ripen their fruit, which suits Vancouver's climate. My tree now has numerous lemons on it right now. I am located in lower North Vancouver. I have attached a pic of some of the ripe lemons.
Was this tree grown from seed? What was your source? How old is it? I'm already thinking about the lemon meringue pies! Ralph
Lemons I bought this tree from Cedar Rim nurseries in Langley BC, 3 years ago. It has never been inside since I have owned it. I do protect it on cold clear nights with a comforter. Last year on those freezing cold three days I added a string of Christmas lights and wrapped them around the tree. This seemed to work fine. It is 3 feet tall and about the same in width. I probably have close to a hundred lemons on it, all in various sizes. It flowers all year but produces more in the spring, summer and fall. I also have a smaller one about 8" tall and it already has some small lemons on it. You are better off getting a cutting of an already fruiting tree or buying one with flowers or lemons on it already. To grow one from seed can take years or it may never flower. Good luck and happy pie eating.
Hi, WesNV. I'm both surprised and encouraged by the photo of your lemon tree: Surprised because I thought it was too cold here for lemons; encouraged because that means it may also do well for me indoors. Up until now I've been growing a couple of trees that were started from seed. They're doing well but won't be producing fruit anytime soon if ever. The calamondin I bought earlier this year has shown so much promise that I decided to add a few more varieties from Monrovia to my collection. The waiting begins now that they've been pruned and repotted. I should have done this sooner - they're such wonderful plants. Ummm...meringue pie...arrgggg.
I line in Lynn Valey area of Norh Vancouver near Highway 1 zone 8. I would like to grow some citrus the improved meyor seems like the obvious but ive been told that the Nagami kumquate and the Owari Satsuma are also pretty hardy. a grower i was in touch with uses a "C13 cuban" root stock he says that it is hardier than the Trifoliate root stock but it is not deciduous like trifoliate any thoughts? Has anyone tried growing these?
Kumquats and mandarins may be hardier but they have a high heat requirement for fruit development. The lemon appears to be a better choice. Some North Shore nurseries carry the Eureka lemon; you may want to consider that one as well.
I am a little confused here as the Cuban rootstocks are being used mainly for disease resistance such as Tristeza, not for hardiness factors. Also, is there really a zone 8 in Vancouver? If so, then you can grow a variety of Citrus outdoors. Our old Meyer Lemon on its own roots, cutting grown, was transplanted from San Pedro, California, in Los Angeles County to Merced County in 1965. The tree was 12 years old then. The first Winter in the ground we had temperatures down to zero (have not have them since either) and the Lemon tree survived. It got chewed up and we had to prune it back quite a ways but I think it says a lot for how well some Citrus can handle cold better than we give them credit for. No way could a Lisbon or a Eureka have survived zero temperatures unless they have been in the ground for some time and we protected them from the cold some way somehow. Jim
mr shep. Thanks for the reply. I probably 1 to 3 miles from a true zone 8 so every 5 years we might be a 7b this past winter we went to - 10C (14f) for 2 nights and only 2 weeks with below freezing temperatures last year we had 3 nights with -15c(5f) but that hasn't happened for 15 years I have bananas ( protected) and 6 types of palms.Since i wrote the querry I have purchased both a Eureka and a Improved meyor 1 and 2 gal respectfully- both grown by minrovia growers in California. I will keep them potted unill they are more established 2 or 3 years then try them outside- next to my house with a s/east exposure. Unfortunatly we do not have hot summers only two or 3 weeks with temperatures above (80F) 27c. so hopfully that will be sufficient .... we will see. what about other edible citrus for my climate ? Any thoughts? Check out www.tropic.ca and check out this guys Bananas - he lives about 20miles south of me. Regards, Greg
'Improved Meyer' Lemon appears to be the best choice for our area if I'm reading Table 1 of this document correctly. 'Eureka' will need more protection. Keep in mind sufficient heat is required for flowering and fruit production in the selection of citrus. Perhaps mr.shep can expanded on this.
For you guys in Canada I think plant availability at the nursery level is your current dilemma. Not many forms of Citrus are able to come in to Canada and those that can come in from the US will predominately be from just a handful of West Coast sources. The same has been true for years but the East Coast cannot buy from us out here as easily now and then ship the Citrus into Canada. It is better for the nurseries in Canada that want to carry Citrus to buy direct from the wholesale grower here, then have the plant material "phytoed", as some people call it, then have the plants come in. Nurseries in Canada are not going to know what their customers really want to try to grow and it is with this area that you guys can help them. Getting plants to come in from Four Winds (true dwarf Citrus) or Ivanhoe brand Citrus (mostly semi-dwarf) will have to be done by a nursery ordering a quantity of Citrus all at one time and agreeing to have the Citrus tested and later certified and then the Citrus can come across the border. Much easier for a bona fide nursery to have the tests done here rather than an individual have to pay to have the tests conducted and then drive the plants in across the border. If you guys want some of the exotic types of Citrus such as the Etrog or a Kaffir Lime there is a way to get it done but if you want a nursery to do it for you it will probably require you guys to have some buyers for these plants as soon as the nursery gets them in. Better still if all of the pre-orders are spoken for as then the nursery can fill your combined order along with theirs and have less expenses but more so a guarantee that the nursery will not have to hold these plants for a long while. Which is why the nurseries will be hesitant to order Citrus that they may not be able to sell rather quick. I think you guys may want to just come out with the varieties of Citrus you want to grow and then we can go from there. Most forms will be quite risky to try to grow outdoors. Some will balk at being grown indoors and others not so much and then you will have several that can be grown in a greenhouse. You still will want these plants to be portable in that they can go from a house or a greenhouse to escape the cold to being moved outdoors to get plenty of light, warmth and to get some bee activity to pollinate the flowers for you. I just don't think you will get good pollinization trying to grow two Kaffir Limes indoors hoping for better pollination of the flowers without bee activity. Maybe you guys know something I don't but I have not seen many bees flying around doing their work for us in a greenhouse set up. I have seen it attempted before with Citrus but with varied, mixed results. With the heat requirements that some Citrus may have to have I just don't envision trying to grow a Mexican Lime in Canada and be all that successful doing it. I am not saying it cannot be done as you can pull it off if you know when that tree needs warmth and when it needs some cooling for the fruit to yield both the color to the skin as well as have a percent sugar to give this Lime its characteristic sweet aroma and sweet and tart taste. I think the Bearss Lime will be easier for you to grow. The Rangpur Lime is easier still but it is not a true Lime. For Lemons, the Meyer and the Ponderosa are the hardiest but they are both hybrids, so you are not going to have a true Lemon but you will have two plants that are excellent at what they are supposed to be. Below is a modified list of Citrus that Monrovia has available from their web site. http://www.monrovia.com/monroviaweb...a68782c1f151c19e882568740066bb5c!OpenDocument Mexican Thornless Lime Dwarf Lisbon Lemon Fukumoto Navel Orange Dancy Tangerine Kara Mandarin Orange Marrs Valencia Orange Bearss Seedless Lime Owari Satsuma Mandarin Orange Moro Blood Orange Washinton Navel Orange Trovita Orange Minneola Tangelo Cara Cara Pink Navel Orange Variegated Calamondin Orange Dwarf Washington Navel Orange Pink Variegated Eureka Lemon Dwarf Redblush Grapefruit Nagami Kumquat Campbell Valencia Orange Cocktail Pummelo Dwarf Lane Late Navel Orange Meyer Improved Lemon Lisbon Lemon Dwarf Bearss Seedless Lime Dwarf Campbell Valencia Orange Eureka Lemon Redblush Grapefruit Clementine Mandarin Orange Below is the Four Winds variety list from their web site. http://www.fourwindsgrowers.com/variety_list.html Oranges Cara Cara (Pink) Navel Orange Late Lane Navel Robertson Navel Shamouti (Jaffa/Palestine) Trovita Valencia Washington Navel Moro (Blood) Sanquinella (Blood) Chinotto Sour (Myrtle-Leaf) Seville Sour Bergamot Mandarins / Tangerines Dancy Tangerine Owari Satsuma Clementine (Algerian) Murcott (Honey) Lemons Eureka Lisbon Improved Meyer Lemon Ponderosa Variegated Pink Lemon Limes Bearss Seedless (Tahiti/Persian) Mexican (Key) Kaffir (Kieffer/Thai/Wild) Palestine Sweet Lime Rangpur Grapefruit Oro Blanco Rio Red Kumquats Nagami Kumquat Meiwa Kumquat Indio Mandarinquat Eustis Limequat Exotics Calamondin - (Kalamansi; Philippine lime) Variegated Calamondin Fingered Citron Buddha's Hand Etrog Citron (Ethrog) Minneola Tangelo Jim
You know it'll be a challenge to find Kaffir Lime when you're steered towards the stacks of dolomite lime when you ask for it. 8-D Etrog elicits similar blank looks. I actually located a source for the lime in eastern Canada but the price was in the triple digits - not in my budget. With a little persistence most of Monrovia's citrus varieties can be found in my area. There appears to be a second supplier (having a more limited distribution) whose plants are also grown in Visalia, CA. Their identity is unknown due to a lack of a company name on the plant labels and containers. Jim, 1. Are you saying Four Winds Growers also ship to the Vancouver area? If that's the case then there's hope in getting the exotic varieties by tracking down the retailers they supply. 2. Do you know when Monrovia usually update their website with next year's offerings? I'd like to be able to contact my local nursery to see if they can order the varieties that I want. 3. Does Kaffir Lime need help with pollination more so than other citrus varieties? I've noted my Calamondin produces many fruits without any help at all.
If a well known or established nursery were to want a quantity of Citrus from Four Winds and the nursery will pay to have the Citrus certified so they can come into Canada, then there is a chance that Four Winds will ship into Canada. The problem is on the Canadian end with the certificates. What the West Coast nurseries will not do and I don’t blame them one bit is ship the plants and then have then placed under quarantine with the risk that some plants may perish or go sour during the wait. Who is liable if that happens? Either way it is a loser to the grower. The grower cannot be fully responsible for the plants once they are shipped but there are some grower nurseries that will feel obligated to replace any lost plants, then not ever ship to Canada ever again under those same guidelines. It ends up being bad for the grower's reputation. The way to solve that problem is for the Canadian nursery to offer to let the plants stay here, have them tested and certified and then the Canadian nursery makes arrangements to have the plants come in without further delay or the Canadian nursery can drive the plants in if they want. Sorry, if I made it seem that an individual can buy from Four Winds and do the same thing as a nursery can. It will depend on the nursery and their reputation if Four Winds might consider doing such a thing. I cannot speak for them but they may yield to shipping if everything can be streamlined as to when the plants are shipped and when they will arrive to their destinations in Canada. The health and condition of the plants once they arrive to the buyer nursery in Canada will be the make or break issue. Some nurseries here have shipped before to Canada and will not do it again period, don't even ask them to again. The money for a few plants is not worth the grief from word of mouth negatives later if something does not go according to plan. It is easier for the buyer nursery to bring in the plants themselves after they have been certified clean which will not be even be an issue with Four Winds Citrus stock. Usually any updates in Monrovia's web site come later in the year from what I've seen. Does not always hold true though for certain plants but for Citrus I bet it will. I've read a report online that told of them buying two Kaffir Limes to get good pollinizing and then got good fruit set on both trees. I am not so sure a second plant is needed but with several forms of Citrus that it does not hurt to have a second tree blooming whether it is a Lemon or a Mandarin blooming at the same time as the target tree is blooming. Here, we get helped by the Fruit Trees blooming when some of our Citrus are in bloom. There is enough pollen around to be shared by the bees but if you don't have any other trees that may be blooming, then a second Citrus may just prove rather handy. There are two other Citrus wholesale growers in the Visalia area. One specializes in standards with some dwarf types and the other specializes in semi- dwarfs, dwarfs and some standards. Both nurseries have been around long enough that many nurseries have purchased Citrus from them for quite a while. I bought two Blood Oranges (Moro and Sanguinelli) for the misses yesterday that came from one of them from a local retail nursery I've dealt with for several years, 15 years in all. Now I have the misses wanting a Kaffir Lime and a pink fleshed Lemon after she saw the information from the Four Winds web site. I’ll get them for her and we will grow them in containers. Jim
I E mailed Four Winds growers they have not had much luck exporting into Canada. that being said, last week I contacted Canadian Food inspection Agency in Burnaby, they advised that Citrus requires a phytosanitary (sp?)certificate .I was hoping to import a couple of trees as "house plants" but to do things legitimate I dont think that would fly. The Inspector suggested that it normally cost around $20 for certifiction. This is done by USDA inspector at the nursery. the certificate is shipped with the plants. He also suggested that a USDA inspector probably visits the nursury on a regular basis anyway. You could have the plants delivered to Pt.Roberts Washington there are several locations that you can have parcels shipped to so there would be less delay in recieving the plants. Food For thought.... There is a minimal service charge for their service . Also, which is will work for citrus shipping bare root or with roots ( or does it make a difference in the long run?) Try and make heads and tails of this government site .... http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/plaveg/internat/internate.shtml Greg
Greg, some time ago I found a CFIA document that may actually be useful. Houseplants imported in-person MAY be exempt from the documentation under CFIA directive D-01-03. There are of course certain restrictions one of which is the plants are not to be planted outside (which you would like to do). I'd like to hear from forum members who have made use of this exemption. With regards to Pt. Roberts, are you saying there are companies that will receive goods on your behalf for a fee? If so, what type of business is it and approximately how much do they charge?
Junglekeeper There are three. I dont have the names handy but I will get the contacts and post them. (maybe Fedex or Mailboxes etc or companies like that) For a small fee (I am assuming depending on size...) less than $5.00 you get the product delivered to the company in your name at their address and they call you when it has arrived. You bring it accross the border. A friend recently had a transmision from a car delivered there and another friend gets his model train stuff delivered there too. as far as house plants....when I called CFIA they said citrus did not recieve the houseplant exemption - unless you were moving here and they were part of your household effects. I have not actually tried bringing any plants accross the border. I would like to hear from anyone who has.....legally.... Aahem...! Greg
All discussions on the import of plants need to stay on the straight and narrow. As frustrating as it may be (and yes, the botanical garden staff and researchers get frustrated sometimes, too - I've seen arrived shipments of dead plants), the rules are in place for a reason (even if the reason conflicts with common sense).
The import restrictions have their purpose. Most of the problems were due to people feeling they could bypass the quarantine once the plants entered Canada. If the proper steps were taken before the plants were shipped then a lot of plants would not have reached their destinations in either poor shape or the plants arrived deceased. We've had that happen to us also from plants coming in from other countries in which we did not take proper measures to safeguard the safety of the plants before the plants were to be shipped. I am in agreement with the current import restrictions that Canada has implemented. All it takes is one unverified or one non certified shipment that can cause irreparable harm to existing plants. People that have seen the effects of foreign plant diseases, insects and invasive plants know all too well that the import restrictions are imposed to help protect the plants that we already have. It is not so much the specialty plants that governments worry about the most, it is the native plants. Native plants introduced to a foreign invader just may not have any natural build up in resistance. Think of the impact of what a virulent, new strain of avian influenza could do to humans that have no antibody resistance to it. Plants are no different than humans in that regard. Nurseries ordering in plants from other countries are held accountable in some way whereas a single individual may not be. I am not advocating anyone working around the current Canadian import rules, I am saying there is a way to work with it and still maintain an integrity that can satisfy all sides of the equation. Jim
Back to the drawing board. Too bad citrus does not qualify for the exemption. Greg, Which citrus varieties are you looking for? I may have come across them during my search. Jim, Do you know the answer to question #3?
The answer to your question is what I thought. No, the Kaffir Lime does not need a pollinizer but since the trees have such sparse fruit set it may be better to have a second one to get a larger sized crop. I'll let out a secret that may work for you. It is not uncommon for a nursery here to pick up plants from another nursery to fill a pre-order, even if the nursery that is selling to Canada does not grow that plant. In other words, there is a way that even Monrovia can fill an order for the Kaffir Lime sold to a nursery in Canada, providing the nursery makes it worth Monrovia's while to locate some Kaffir Limes for them to co-join an already placed order. Monrovia did not get to where the are without bending over backwards sometimes to help their retail affiliate nurseries fill their customers plant needs. This is also a subject area that cannot be randomly abused either, especially more so at this particular time. There are some definite, limiting factors as to how and which plants can come into Canada after the on site certification process has been completed here. This is no time for a nursery to make an order and then back out of it later is what I am saying! Jim
It's nice to know how things work. The nurseries that I've talked to order their citrus only once a year for delivery in early spring. I'll bring up Kaffir Lime at that time if I haven't found a source by then. As you suggested, a nursery may be more accommodating if they know they have a committed order for a number of plants. Thanks, Jim. 1. Are there other self-fertile citrus varieties that need this extra help? 2. Can we achieve the same effect by grafting a branch from another tree to the host?
Junglekeeper I would like to try a Trifoliate root & Meyer lemon cross and a Owari Satsuma (possibly with trifoliate root stock) Im not sure a beast like that is available? I have some concerns with winter leaf damage if i don't protect it well enough or like happens around here we get a cold snap (15 deg f )then sudden warm temperatures (say 55deg f) which may trigger premature new growth (trifoliate is deciduous) HMMM not sure... any thoughts? I am also want to locate a Palm (in canada) - Serenoa Repens ( saw palmetto ) rated Zone 6) Thanks, Greg
Greg, There were quite a few Improved Meyer Lemons (on citrange rootstock) from Monrovia but it doesn't sound like that's what you're looking for. I glanced over the standards that I came across so it's possible there may have been a mandarin or two amongst them. Check with Cedar Rim Nursery in Langley and Triple Tree Nursery in Maple Ridge. There were about a half dozen or so standards at each nursery. If you haven't already done so, try contacting: 1. Monrovia to get a list of local retailers they shipped that mandarin to this year; 2. Pacific Northwest Palm and Exotic Plant Society regarding the palm. They may be able to give you leads. Hope this helps. Jim would be the one to ask for cultural advice.
Are there other self-fertile citrus varieties that need this extra help? A lot depends on whether we want a true dwarf, a semi dwarf or a standard sized tree. From my experience some dwarf types do not produce as much fruit as a semi dwarf can and some semi dwarfs do not produce as much fruit year in and year out that a standard tree will. A lot also depends on our growing conditions and if we have these trees indoors, in a greenhouse or a solarium or planted in the ground. A major factor also is how much bee activity we will get. A Mandarin or a Lemon in bloom at the same time as the Kaffir Lime should suffice for pollinizing or for being a bee attractant. I am not saying you have to have two Kaffir Limes to get the job done but a Kaffir Lime by itself is probably not going to produce any bumper crops which can be a blessing at times but can also be a drawback if we want ample fruit from that particular Lime. Here is how I am going to play it. I will be getting 2 Kaffir Limes, one for me and one for the misses. I'll have mine in a container real close to my old Meyer Lemon, partly so I can have the Lime under cover when it is cold and yet close to the Lemon as the Lemon will attract bees. I am playing with the thought of having a Mexican Lime as I've not ever grown one. The misses wants a Bearss Lime, a sweet Lime, so she will have two Limes blooming about the same time which should give her a better chance to have decent crops of Limes on both trees. Both Limes of hers will be dwarfs. Ideally I prefer semi dwarfs but I may not be able to buy a semi dwarf Kaffir Lime so it seems I'll have to go with a dwarf also which is okay by me. My old dwarf Honey (Murcott) Mandarin planted in the ground for 22 years was grafted on trifoliate rootstock. Mine seldom shows any leaf damage, even left unprotected with temps down in the teens. If the leaves were to be nipped by the cold or frozen due to real cold then I would want a warm spell soon so that I will get some new growth to regenerate. The only time I would be concerned with new growth is if it turned warm as the new growth is emerging and then get a real cold snap to kill the new growth. Greg, just get a standard Owari Satsuma on trifoliate rootstock and give it a whirl. I have a feeling that Junglekeeper is going to grow Citrus indoors or in a greenhouse and then place them outdoors when the temperatures are warmer, which is probably how I would work it if I lived in Vancouver and wanted to grow Citrus. I would not have them outdoors year round, just too risky a proposition. Can we achieve the same effect by grafting a branch from another tree to the host? Years ago in the 60's this was a real hot with Fruit Trees to have Apples and Peaches with up to three varieties grafted onto one tree. For a few years it worked okay but it did not take long for one of the grafts to be over taken by one of the other grafts and then we had two varieties. Another issue was that the second graft worked well to help pollinize the other graft but they did not complement each other in that one side of the tree had good fruit set and the other side of the tree only had a few fruit. What was a standard tree in the nursery trade died out rather quick when people paid extra to have the three grafted varieties and in about 5-6 years were left with either one variety or two but one variety seldom produced much fruit. I've seen the same thing for production Plums in which some growers cut off the old Friar Plum grafts back to the base of the tree, made some side grafts with Methley and Santa Rosa and in a few years of production did away with one of the grafted sections. Why? The trees were lopsided as one side grew much faster and filled out much quicker than the other side did. What made things bad was that the Santa Rosa, which was the pollinizer, side would be the faster grower when the growers really wanted the Methley Plums to pick and ship. I think with Citrus you can try to graft a section onto an existing tree but you may not be happy with the results if what I've seen in Crabapples, Dogwoods, and the ones above hold true. The only success story seems to be the Flowering Peaches as the three grafted varieties for flower color such as a Peppermint Stick, a Double White and a midseason Double Red seem to have done well. Although they are pretty much limited to being grown around here and in very limited supply now as bare root trees. Jim
Jim, I think you may have just provided the answer to another thread (Citrus Varieties at Retail | UBC Botanical Garden Forums) that I started some time ago. It seems reasonable to sell semi-dwarfs (on citrange rootstock) in an area where plants are likely to be grown indoors where they need to be small and yet still produce fruit. These plants would then be a compromise between size and fruit production! What do you think?