I have found some great information on this site. There are so many brilliant people in this community. I am very interested in something I read in several places about rootstock effecting variegated trees. This probably applies to Ukigumo more than any other JM. I've seen so many different photos of the tree online. Some entirely ghost white. Some very green. Some blushed with pinks. People say the whites last for a few weeks, or all summer. I don't think sun exposure alone can account for the variations of this tree. I wonder if grafting to red rootstock brings more pinks. Green causes some fading of the whites to green into July, and perhaps variegated rootstock is what produces the whitest, longest lasting variegation on this maple. Certainly shade and soil and fertilization have an impact. But I'm curious about what rootstock gives this tree the best, whitest color. I have seen 3 completely different Ukigumo at a nursery, all taken from the same mother plant. And all grafted to green rootstock. Id love to see an experiment where 10 similar scions from the same mother plant are grafted to 10 different rootstocks (of known cultivars) and the resultant Ukigumo are closely monitored. I have a young Ukigumo that is one of my favorite spring trees, but just green and boring in the summer. Anyone with grafting experience do something like this before?
Maybe this thread should be moved from the photo gallery? I guess from the outset this trial is seldom done purely because 99% of cultivars are already grafted.This would mean creating a double graft and be quite time consuming and expensive.It also means you can't rule out any effects from the rootstock if there are any. I personally believe any exchange of (I'll call them 'genes' from now on thru lack of knowledge)from rootstock to scion must be negligible to non existant.Some of our cultivars have been around for 300years+ and grafted 1000's of times on to goodness knows what rootstock but(we assume) still retain most of their original properties. It has been mentioned by well respected members that rootstocks can alter the cultivar,but I think all changes seen can be put down to enhanced growing capabilities(as you've already mentioned)Grafting onto say a vigorous amoneum rootstock seems to sometimes reduce variegation,colouration and change leaf shape,at least in the early years. I have read that any exchange of 'genes' can only take place where the two different plants are in contact,ie the grafting area,and it is only certain types of 'genes',not all that can do this.This can rarely be seen when you get Chimeral growth at the grafting point.Thinking of how the plant grows,the outward growth(girth)is fed by the cells in the cambium within the scion,and the length only increases from the tip.There is no flow of cells coming from the rootstock to do this.However I have read experiments where sugar maples have been grafted onto sycamore rootstock to increase salt tolerance for use as street trees.The grafts weren't as tolerant as a pure sycamore but more so than a sugar maple.Wether this increased tolerance can be put down to just the roots being more tolerant I don't know. We have to know what causes our cultivars to be as they are.I believe most of their 'attributes' are caused by some genetic abnormality and therefore won't be influenced by grafting.I have grafted onto red and green rootstocks(probably includiing Ukigumo)and used to note down the red ones,but I don't bother now as I have not noticed any differences. However,if the 'attributes' of the cultivar are caused by some sort of transferable virus,I think there may be a slim chance of seeing an effect from grafting.I have just grafted onto what someone believes is a virus infected cultivar(though I'm not sure) and am waiting for the graft to take....we shall see but I'm not buliding my expectations up too high :)
Thanks Houzi. I am not a nursery man, or grafter. Merely an interested collector. I don't think that grafting can alter genetics in any way. Except maybe in the instances mentioned before at the graft site. But I do think that rootstocks can affect the way the cultivar behaves throughout the growing season. Specifically with more vigorous rootstock. I've always been told that Ukigumo displays more white when it is more stressed out. So it seems to make sense that the rootstock that supplies more energy would yield a greener tree. I wonder if the variations seen in Ukigumo are due to nurseries taking scion from the mother plant that is not displaying the best whites because they want to retain that for the mother plant, or if it has to do with soil type or the vigor of specific rootstock. Although I don't expect there to be an enormous difference from one tree to the next, I wonder if some rootstock are simply going to yield a slightly better variegated version and others. After all, I have seen specific examples of this tree all grafted from the same mother plant that look quite different, and some are much whiter, and hold their whites longer. Being a man of science, I don't like to believe that it is totally random. But that there are in fact outside factors that are not yet known which contribute to a more spectacular version of this tree
I'm just a collector too :) Agreed...it would appear that the rate of growth seems to affect this and other cultivars,so it would make sense to avoid too vigorous rootstock but I should imagine this is rarely,if ever done.I have had a few cultivars on their own roots,they don't grow or branch out as strongly as you'd expect but the colours of some(Phoenix&Marlo) seem to be brighter to me.Also the leaf shapes sometimes appear more delicate. You may be right about selection of scions but I feel most propagators probably 'coppice' their stock trees to produce plenty of new scions each year.This vigorous new growth may not always be the best part of the tree to use.I was given a Ukigumo by my sister which she bought online.It never did show any variegation and I don't believe you can put that down to the rootstock.I think,especially in the case of Ukigumo,the quality of scions used is the main culprit as I believe the future growth of the plant will pretty much only inherit whatever is already present in the scion. As you say though there is still a lot we don't know....how some cultivars can lose their variegation then have it return kind of contradicts my thoughts....always an intersting subject though
I also wonder about the selection of scion material. Not being a geneticist, I would think that the DNA would be the same in the trunk and the stems and leaves of the tree. So I would think that all scion from a mother plant would contain the same DNA whether they look the same or not. And from that point environmental conditions would influence differences in variegation between grafted trees from the same mother. I guess I'm including different rootstocks as part of the "environmental conditions"
Interesting topic, one definitely worth exploring - but as Houzi mentioned, rather time-consuming and possibly expensive. After all, it would take many years to know if this truly did have an impact. But, it would be a very interesting experiment, that's for sure! I noticed that you are in Syracuse. Have you been by Topiary Gardens yet (in Marcellus)? Diana (owner) has a lot of experience with maples, she may be interested in your thoughts and perhaps even want to participate in your little experiment, or have feedback from her own personal experiences. :) She has a great selection of maples, high quality, and great prices; I've purchased from her many, many times and have always been impressed by her trees. I wish I lived closer - though, hubby's wallet might not agree, lol.
I would live there if I could. Diana is a good friend. Very brilliant, and she has top-quality trees. Her gardens are amazing. I have 28 JM so far, and the majority have come from her
Oh I like the way our common interest seems to bring people together...people seem to know others and places etc.....almost like a little community :) Hope everyone's having a great summer! Anyway,Ha ha....I'm really guessing now...it would mean in theory that if you had all the grafts on identical rootstocks,grown in identical ideal conditions,they would all be the same....but I don't think it's just that.....clearly having the same DNA throughout the tree doesn't make the whole tree appear the same.As you implied, you can see different degrees of variegation etc. throughout a tree,some parts sometimes completely absent.I agree it may as you say,be environmental factors which influence the degrees of variegation but my gut feeling is...if it ain't in the scion,it won't be in the tree.I think that all growth is cell division,and if environmental factors or anything else have caused part of the plant to produce more healthy cells than deformed cells,then any scion taken from this part will be off to a bad start.I just think it's gonna be harder and maybe on occasion impossible to correct the balance in a bad scion even with the right environment etc. Geesh!,I'm really out of my depth now :).....any experts?
This has also gotten me thinking about why new growth on Japanese maples is sometimes very different from the previous year's growth. This is very noticeable on trees like geisha gone wild, Ukimgumo, and Beni Otake. I'm certain there is a scientific explanation for this, but I think that's a question for another thread
Lucky you!! I have never been to Diana's, though I hope to some day. But, if I did, I don't think I'd want to leave and/or hubby's wallet would be in shock, lol. I would say a good half of my trees have come from her as well. :) Too bad we can't talk to the trees and ask them why they do this or don't do that, would sure make things a lot easier!
Here is a video I made of her property: topiary Gardens And here is one that I made of another garden she did at a private residence: http://youtu.be/Qb0obSLnJvc
Diana sent me a link to that video last fall :) She has some lovely gardens and trees, hopefully I will be able to see them in person one day. As for the second video, did she do all of that?? Stunning! I would love to have something even a quarter that lovely some day...
