Sugar Maple & Japanese Maple... How close?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Kanuni, Aug 3, 2011.

  1. Kanuni

    Kanuni Active Member

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    I'm planning to plant Acer Saccharum (or Acer Rubrum), A. Palmatum Diss. Inaba Shidare, A. Palmatum Bloodgood and A. Palmatum Red Flash altogether in one of the corners of my yard. But I'm worried that in time the roots of the sugar maple (or red maple) may damage the Japanese maples and especially the Inaba Shidare.

    Right at the corner of the yard, imagine that there will be a right angled triange shape (right angle being the corner of the yard course). At the right angle, I'm planning to plant a sugar maple, and at the 2 other corners I'm planning to plant bloodgood and red flash japanese maples. And right on the middle of these 3 trees I'm planning to plant the Inaba Shidare. It will look something like this:


    |(x)Sugar Maple|||||||||||||(x)A. Palmatum Red Flash
    ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
    |||||||||||||||||||||||
    |||||||||||||||||||||
    |||||||||||||||||
    ||||||||||||||(x)A. Palmatum Dissectum Inaba Shidare
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    ||||||||
    ||||||
    |||
    |(x)A. Palmatum Bloodgood


    The distance of the Inaba Shidare to the other trees will be approximately 2 meters (6.5 feet). The distance of the Sugar Maple (or red maple) to each tree will also be 2 meters. Do you think that once the red or sugar maple establishes itself after many years, it will harm the inaba shidare or the other 2 japanese maples? I'm thinking that its canopy will most probably cover all of them and put them in shade (which is OK for me, since it is very hot in summers in here for the Japanese Maples anyway), but what about from under the ground? I remember reading that Sugar & Red Maples (especially the sugar maples I suppose) don't let anything grow under them, but is 2 meters distance still "under" ???

    Whether the sugar maple will survive in this hot climate here is another issue of course, but if it doesn't, I will definitely replace it with an Acer Rubrum cultivar that is more heat tolerant such as the October Glory, so my question still stands in the long term. Will sugar and/or red maples' roots take over or harm Japanese Maples which are planted in 2 meter distance?
     
  2. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    This is an interesting question for which there is no black and white answer. In the botanical world there are many trees with an aggressive (Fagus, betula, prunus,...) and other with a 'nice' ( Quercus, acer,...) root systems. The key for being able to place other plants close to aggressive trees is that there must be plenty of everything they need (water, food,...) all the time all over the area. If there is a water shortage the aggressive trees will very quickly (a few years) send there roots to explore the volumes occupied by the other plants (which are not well installed yet), invade them and likely undermine their health and future viability.

    In your climate to succeed what you propose my advice would be:

    • water abundantly in the dry season to keep the area always moist. Specially the A. rubrum requires plenty of water
    • heavily (5-10cm) mulch the entire area yearly

    As they grow older, sooner or later (8-10 years), the a. rubrum/ saccharum roots will reach the volumes occupied by your palmatums but in this case the palmatums would have had plenty of time to establish themselves and coexistence would be possible.

    Some people would also suggest using root barriers around the palmatums which would be planted in a mound. This is also possible but I do not practice it.

    Gomero
     
  3. Kanuni

    Kanuni Active Member

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    Thanks for the response. I have a drip irrigation system surrounding each tree and twice every week I turn on the system for about an hour. I arranged the holes so that the water doesn't infact drip but pour slowly like a slightly turned on water from a hose. This slowly poured water comes from 3 different locations for each tree (not near rootballs but somewhere near canopy lines in 3 different locations surrounding each tree).

    I can also mulch heavily with pine bark.

    By the way, would it help if the Japanese Maples to be planted are older than the sugar/red maple? The Japanese Maples that I purchased are imported and Bloodgood is 6.5 feet, the Inaba Shidare is 5 feet tall and the Red Flash is 3 feet tall. The sugar or red maple will probably be less than 3 feet tall.
     
  4. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    This is not a good schedule for Japanese maples. They require constant moisture, deep watering is useless since their roots are very superficial (it is different for the North American maples). It would be much better 15 min everyday day. I also doubt that drip irrigation will keep alive in your summer a mature rubrum/saccharum.

    In addition, with drip irrigation you will have islands of moisture in a sea of bone dry soil. The roots of the North American maples will surely end up colonizing all the islands as I explained above. I suggest you use micro spray nozzles (like this micro nozzle), in order to moisten as much of the surface as possible.

    It would help delaying but it would not change the final outcome as explained.

    Gomero
     
  5. Kanuni

    Kanuni Active Member

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    I'm really confused now :S . Earlier, I remember reading that it is better to make sure to let the soil dry between waterings. I also have lawn in my yard, and it is watered daily with nozzles, but due to what I read before I made sure that an approximately 4 feet diamater area around each tree was lawn/weed free, and that the water from nozzles didn't reach those areas as much as possible. (I have also mulched such areas with pine bark) I wanted to make sure that the soil surrounding the trees dried in between waterings and received deep watering twice weekly with the drip irrigation system... So I guess it is better for me to let the nozzles water the soil under the trees daily so that all the area is constantly moist? I can let the nozzles water the whole yard for 10 minutes or more. I know it will be kind of expensive, but I guess this is the price I have to pay for trying to raise maples in this climate. Do you think this method is sufficient if I can water the whole area around the trees equally? I mean instead of purchasing micro spray nozzles for each tree (I'm not even sure if I can find them here in Turkey.)

    I can also, simply take the hose out and water manually everyday if that is a better method. It would be more labour intensive but I don't mind, since this will only be for about 3 months (in spring, fall and winter we have lots of rain here in where I live). I'm just quite confused now, because I thought it was better to let the soil dry in between waterings instead of keeping the soil constantly moist. :( (Though I had guessed that islands of moist in an area of dry sea could be a problem, so I took out the hose and gave one final watering with hand each time.)

    P.S: I had always measured with a moist measurer device each time BEFORE turning on the drip irrigation system and the soil was never too dry. If I found out it was too dry I would raise the irrigation to 3 times a week. The reading was always one level below "moist".
     
  6. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Watering schedule

    Kanuni, it sounds like you have already found the best approach to watering the maples in your particular growing conditions, as you say: "the soil was never too dry". There is no point in watering daily unless the combination of climatic, topographic and soil conditions dictate that this is needed. In this case I suspect that daily watering will only serve to encourage the roots towards the surface, in turn making the trees dependent on daily watering for their survival.

    Gomero has found that daily watering works best for him in his area, but it will not necessarily be the best method in your area.
     
  7. Kanuni

    Kanuni Active Member

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    I just went ahead and checked the soil around the trees with the moist measurer device (I don't know what is the proper name of this device in English lol), especially in between the drip holes that do not get the water directly from the drip irrigation, and the soil has a good moisture level (even close to wet). I had last turned on the drip irrigation system last tuesday and hadn't watered since. (The lawn receives daily water as I said earlier though.) Even the soil of the citrus and fruit trees which receive full day sun weren't too dry. I was planning to turn on the system today, but I guess in this situation it is better to wait for a few days and recheck. The soil's drainage isn't bad either, as I had prepared the soil with plenty amount of river sand and had checked this winter for flooding when we had heavy rains that lasted couple of days.

    I'm located near Izmir. The weather in Izmir in summer can be considered hot, but not as hot as areas in south, like Antalya, or south east. I'm also located 30-40 km away from Izmir and it is always 3-4 °C cooler than Izmir. For example right now the weather has been around 31-32 °C (less than 90 °F). Of course from time to time it reaches > 35 °C ( > 95 °F ).

    Below I'm attaching photos from some of my maples in my garden to give you a general idea about how my Japanese Maples look in the hottest time of the year. The first 5 pictures, which belong to an Inaba Shidare and another dissectum type, have only been with me for 2 weeks though, and they are currently in pots in front of my house that receives afternoon sun. The rest of the photos are from a A. Palmatum dissectum and A. Palmatum Atropurpureum and they are planted in ground (dissectum gets morning shade, and the atropurpureum gets afternoon shade) and have been with me since 1 year. Of course some of the leaves have burns, so I guess they still don't like this much heat, but they are surviving and growing.

    So, from what can be seen, do you think I can be hopeful about raising JM, Acer Rubrum or even Acer Saccharum? And, the originial question of the thread, does anyone have another opinion regarding planting JM 2 meters (6.5 ' ) near a sugar and/or red maple?

    Thanks in advance.
     

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  8. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    The question was : can I successfully plant an acer rubrum/saccharum close to 3 palmatums in Izmir?. The question was not: how to water maples in Izmir?

    In the transitional Mediterranean climate in my area, I have found, after many years growing maples, that, in summer time and when it does not rain, daily watering for a short period (15 min) is the best schedule for healthy Japanese maples. Japanese maples will have superficial roots no matter what you do. In the UK climate you probably have a different schedule for healthily growing Japanese maples.

    Now back to Izmir. I have attached a summary of climate data for your city. It is a true Mediterranean climate with almost no rainfall in the summer months, much worse than in my area where we receive, on average, 45 mm monthly in those same months. Your planting will be challenging, good luck.

    Gomero
     

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  9. Kanuni

    Kanuni Active Member

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    Thanks to both of you once again for your inputs. They surely do help regarding how I can raise maple trees here in this climate.

    @Gomero: As I had written in my previous post, after 4 days of not watering, the soil is still moist (close to wet even). Do you think that everyday watering is dependant on climate only regardless of the soil type? I don't know, maybe it is the type of soil I have prepared for the trees (normally my soil is heavy clay, but I have made about 1 m³ hole for each tree before planting and made the best soil that was available here), or even maybe the mulch with pine bark helps but the soil doesn't look like it needs watering right now even after 4 days. (I made sure that the holes I dig were also as deep as 1 m. because I was worried that the water wouldn't drain away towards the regular soil that I have -clay-, so I just wanted to replace the soil deep too so that the water stayed away from root area as much as possible.)

    When I first bought a JM last year, a Bloodgood, I didn't know anything about taking care of them at all (not that I know too much now lol), and I kept watering it every 2 days when it was in a pot last summer (I started planting my maples at the end of last fall when the trees went dormant). It quickly lost all of its leaves and I guess almost died. Then I learned about over-watering, and bought a moist checking device. Then I bought many other JM (in total I had 7, now I have 13, 5 of them are in pots and will be planted after they go dormant) and in average I watered them once (or rarely twice) every week, because the moisture level kept showing sufficient with the device. This worked for me, but maybe I can try watering less but more frequently if that is a better method. I don't know if my maples are healthy and if the burns on the leaves that you can see in the photos are normal, maybe with your method my maples will be healthier!

    Your attachment about the climate of Izmir is correct. But as I said, I'm 30-40 km away from Izmir, with a slight elevation (200-250 m.) and the weather here is 3°C cooler than Izmir. Winter and summer... In Izmir, I believe I would have a much tougher time raising JM. But here it hardly rains in summer either, so that is a problem, but I can always water as much as needed.
     
  10. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I agree, which is why I used an alternate title for my first post to indicate I was addressing the side issue that had arisen in this thread and not the main topic.


    Again, I agree, and I do not dispute what works best for you in your conditions. The point I was trying to make is that rainfall is not the only consideration when working out a watering schedule, it is also affected by the type of soil, depth of soil, underlying rock type, topography (plain, valley, hillside, mountainside, etc).

    When previewing this post I see that Kanuni has addressed some of the same issues, so I will not labour the point other than to say that if the soil stays moist for 3-4 days there is no need to water every day.

    Kanuni, I wish you good luck with growing your maples in a challenging climate, and I am sorry I cannot give you any advice on the original question as I have no experience of growing Sugar and Red maples.
     
  11. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    OK Maf, ;-))

    Hmm., I am surprised nobody from the US has pitched in, they are the ones with the most experience underplanting acer rubrum/saccharum.

    A word of caution: your summers are very dry but your winters are very wet. Depending on the type of soil you have added you may be confronted to water-logging in the holes you have dug for the palmatums during the winter, and those plants hate having their roots in water (on the other hand Rubrum does not mind at all). I do see that you are aware of the problem and try to minimize risk but it is too common a reason why people with clay soils lose their palmatums.

    Gomero
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    With Acer rubrum in some locations a drying out period
    between waterings may be helpful but where you are this
    notion will not work too well for you. One thing you did
    not consider is that for you to grow Maples successfully
    where you are with your soil type and your method of
    irrigation, you will not want your Acer rubrum or Acer
    saccharum
    to completely dry out between waterings.
    Even in the Pacific northwest, Acer rubrum does not
    go completely dry between waterings, either from
    irrigation or from rainfall, the soil in the root zone is
    still somewhat moist.

    A drying out of Acer saccharum during the Summer
    months, even in the Foothill areas near me can lead
    to stress upon the young to juvenile tree that suppress
    vigor, cause root damage and resultant leaf scald.
    It is the adult aged trees that have adapted in the
    ground for a number of years that can become
    drought tolerant but the young trees of both the
    Sugar and Scarlet Maples will have some growing
    issues where you are without ample water. It is
    a fine line sometimes how much is too much
    water and a lot is determined by how deep the
    water is being applied and the amount of residual
    salts you already have in the soil and how much
    salt buildup you can expect to get from your water
    combined with subsequent nutrient applications
    and/or naturally occurring nutrient release and
    nutrient binding you get in your soil. [Note:
    drip irrigation generally does not saturate
    down deep enough to flush out accumulated
    salts from the root zone.]

    So, you want to plant a Japanese Maple
    or two around six feet (2 meters) from an
    Acer rubrum and/or Acer saccharum, can
    it be done without too much root interference
    from the expected larger growing Maples? Yes,
    you can try it where you are located and get
    away with it. Whereas in cooler and wetter
    climates it may not be advisable to plant an
    Inaba shidare that close to a mature aged
    Scarlet Maple as a reference example. I
    would not be nearly as concerned with
    the same scenario with a mature aged
    Sugar Maple however. With proper
    watering (“listen” to Gomero about his
    growing practices) and maintenance of all
    of the young to juvenile aged Maple trees
    you can be successful growing palmatum
    type Maples near and under the canopy
    of an eventual larger growing, non related,
    Acer.

    Jim
     
  13. Kanuni

    Kanuni Active Member

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    Thanks again for your response.

    I have great respect for Gomero and I am about to change my whole irrigation system based on his advise. But I am confused, because I got conflicting advise in regards to watering as well. That is why I wanted to hear more opinions. I simply want to do only the best / most suitable for my JM's because my climate is already a bit hard on them.

    My drip irrigation system is a bit different than regular ones because I altered it due to what I have read about the requirements of JM's. For example the water doesn't actually drip, it actually flows as if a hose is turned on at low setting. This flow of water is present on 3-4 locations surrounding EACH tree. So as a matter of fact, not only a small area, but the whole canopy line gets wet after some time. (the water doesn't flood and stay too long though, because the drainage I believe is sufficient.). I usually water my trees like this for 1 hour, twice each week.

    With the above method, the soil never gets too dry even after 5-6 days in hot summer months. I measure it with a device at different locations in the canopy line all the time to make sure.

    The confusion I am having now is due to new advise I got here... Water less deeply but daily or deeply but less frequently like twice every week and let the soil dry in between a bit (not completely / bone dry of course) ???

    I am only trying to learn the best method, because I want to give my JM's best care I can.
     
  14. MarkVIIIMarc

    MarkVIIIMarc Active Member

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    You all have much more experience than I with the climate under discussion.

    My concern is sun/shade tolerance.

    A few years back I removed a Fraxinus americana (did I get that right) white ash. The Cornus florida near by seemed to flourish for the first couple years. Now we had a hot dry summer and boy is that Cornus florida stressed.

    Will the OP have any difficulty as his Acer palmatums go from full sun exposure to mostly shad under the Acer saccharum? Is this even a concern with the expected maximum size of sugar maple in his location?
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011

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