Acer palmatum 'Ichigyoji' Discussion

Discussion in 'Maples' started by mjh1676, Jul 16, 2005.

  1. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hello everyone.
    I ran into a little snag this evening as I was going to post my Ichigyoji photos to the gallery. Wanting to be accurate, I did a little research and found that there may be a little sorting out of things that needs to be done.

    Anyone up for a discussion? It there ever were two trees worthy of a discussion Osakazuki and Ichigyoji would fit the bill.

    Look at this series of photos and we can see at least two different trees, one with 5 lobes and one with 7 lobes, with varing degrees of division between lobes.

    Esveld: Ichigyoji
    http://www.esveld.nl/htmldia/a/ex/acpici.htm

    Add to these photos the plant pictured in the Vertrees 3rd ed. that really has more pointed lancolate lobes rather than ovate. I think there is a similar photo on Esveld.

    Here is a tree I just bought recently as Ichigyoji with a similar leaf shape to one form of Osakazuki. One photo pictures the small 1gal. Osakuzuki (in the front) I purchased the same day as the Ichijyoji. The Osakazuki having a darker green leaf.

    I suspect the questions Jim asks in this thread have some bearing on the discussion:
    http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=816&highlight=Ichigyoji

    Any thoughts?
    I have no additional information to provide on my tree as the way you see it below is the only way I have seen it. No spring or fall clor to rely on. But, what can be said it the lobes of this tree and some of the Esveld tree are much more than divided only 1/2 way to the leaf base--they are over 2/3.

    Michael
     

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  2. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    In regards to your 'Ichigyoji' what do you
    really want to know? I see one leaf that
    is right for 'Ichigyoji' - pronounced "Ichi
    go joe" by the people I hung around with.
    So with that in mind do we call the plant
    an 'Ichigyoji' or not when I see most of the
    leaves are not right for 'Ichigyoji'? Same is
    true for the 'Osakazuki' in that I am seeing
    more leaves not right yet for that Maple
    either. We cannot in many cases compare
    a young plant with an older one. With the
    older plant we should see more consistency
    to the shapes of the leaves, does not always
    hold true but that is what we hope for.

    As I remember it 'Ichigyoji' is pretty much
    always a heptalobum. We may see a modified
    lobe in between the two shortest lobes on
    occasion but we should see a crease or
    indentation in many of the lobes, much like
    the "u" shape I refer to with 'Ogurayama' but
    in many 'Ichigyoji' we will also see a twisting
    or an irregular, slight bulbous shape in the lobe
    nearing the tips to some of the inner lobes,
    whereby the lobes are not always uniform
    in shape from leaf to leaf. The lobes are
    seldom divided beyond 1/3 the way to the
    palm of the leaf.

    Seedlings from 'Ichigyoji' can be cut from 2/3
    or more to the palm, same with some of the
    seedling 'Osakazuki' which really creates
    problems for us in thinking the Maple could
    be an 'Osakazuki' or an 'Ichigyoji' but at the
    same time feeling those Maples are not the
    "real deal" either. Now to really confuse
    things, there has been a form of 'Koreanum'
    without the blue colored backside of the leaf
    that has been sold as 'Osakazuki' in Oregon.
    That form of 'Koreanum' does not have the
    light green coloring mixed in with the darker
    green, actually a light green shading that we
    can see in several to just a few of the interior
    lobes. That Maple can also have lobes in
    5's and 7's but predominately in 7's. We
    felt that the other form, not the true form
    of 'Koreanum', may have originated from
    Japan. On very rare occasions, even one of
    the forms of 'Osakazuki' can throw out lobes
    in 9's but it is rare to see it unless we are
    looking specifically for it and happen to
    see a leaf or two on the tree.

    'Osakazuki' has confused people since day
    one of its importation from Japan. The first
    'Osakazuki' to come in were in fact japonicums.
    The next series of importations came in as
    being called 'Taihai' which is a darker colored
    green form than most of what we've seen here
    shown in the Maple forums as being 'Osakazuki'.
    So, a stipulation had already been made in Japan
    back in the early to mid 60's that the old form
    'Osakazuki' and the newer form were not the
    same plant.

    The beni and akame forms of 'Osakazuki' are
    also the lighter green leaf of the Maple we more
    commonly see, with leaves not as large in size
    as the darker green form can get. The ends of
    the lobes before the tips will nod whereas the
    darker green leafed form does not nod at all
    and the darker form has a much shorter in
    length tip to the lobes as well.

    Planted together the darker green form of
    'Osakazuki' and 'Ichigyoji' do not resemble
    each other well by leaf size, overall leaf shape
    and separation of the lobes. The light green
    forms of 'Osakazuki' contrast even more to
    an 'Ichigyoji' as the leaves are in no way even
    remotely close to how deeply the lobes can
    be separated.

    As of right now based on what I am seeing
    from the photos of them, I am not so sure the
    various forms of 'Taishaku' from Japan are
    not forms of 'Ichigyoji'. The 'Hiro taishaku'
    as pictured in the Ganshukutei web site is
    how I remember 'Ichigyoji' looking like in
    the Fall both here when we did see good
    Fall color on our Maples and also in Japan,
    more notably in Kyoto and in Osaka.

    Jim
     
  3. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Jim,

    What do I really want to know? Based on the multiple forms of Ichigyoji I saw in various photos, I wanted to know what the correct form was. Additionally, it seems that with many maples there is an old form or Japanese form, what we would consider the true form and then other "forms" that have been introduced from seedlings that share some, but not all characteristics. I was hoping to find out how the puzzle fits together.

    When I bought the two trees above, I was rembembering what Vertrees had written about the possibility of Osakazuki and Ichigyoji being sister seedlings. While this seems like a lovely idea for a combination planting, one red and one orange in fall, it seems now that it is less likely the true form of Ichigyoji is a seedling realted to Osakauzki at all.


    If we compare the photos of the Taishakus and the strong amoenum form of Ichigyoji shown by Vertrees I can see the grouping of leaf characteristics. Now, the other piece of the puzzle, which we can really only sort out in spring and fall, is whether or not the form of Ichigyogi I just bought will show the right fall color and if so, can we then think it is a seedling selection from Osakazuki?

    I took some time to look at Koreanum or what I think Vertrees calls Korean Gem and I see the similarities that you suggest with Osakazuki. If we combine this with the diversity in the Osakazuki gallery thread and the idea of a japonicum form and the existence of Taihai, we have many more variables to consider for Osakazuki as well as many opportunities for seedling forms that may have been introcuded as Ichigyoji.

    I'll see what happens in the fall. It may well be that my tree turns red and it is nothing more than Osakazuki-like. Regardless, the Esveld gallery alone leaves a great deal to be sorted for Ichigyoji.

    Michael
     
  4. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    When we criticize photos, from an objective viewpoint, of
    Maples shown in web sites we have to realize that some of
    these plants have been around, been in the ground for a while
    at various gardens. It used to be that when we saw what may
    be a seedling of another Maple such as a seedling selection
    of 'Osakazuki' that showed a lighter green color that the old
    guard strongly considered the seedling a form of 'Osakazuki'
    until they were able to see characteristics in the seedling that
    were different from the parent. Then, there is the notion of
    how beni and the akame forms came about as they did not
    arise from seedlings but were sports that turned those colors
    and were later grafted and then grown on hoping that those
    offspring would develop the pink borders and internal pink
    coloring to the leaf and for akame have the rose pink coloring
    and shading in the interior of the leaf. Both of those forms
    could have been named separately when we use the rationale
    that only seedlings are true forms of a Maple. In other words
    'Beni osakazuki' could have been recognized here and in Japan
    and in some cases this form has been sold by very select
    nurseries, by only a couple in Oregon that I know of, as being
    'Beni osakazuki'. The forms of 'Kasagiyama' that I know were
    never sold as 'Beni kasagiyama', 'Aka kasagiyama', 'Shiro
    kasagiyama' in Japan or elsewhere as the people that had those
    Maples first off did not really want to sell them as they were
    collection material plants, meaning that years ago the feeling
    was that only collectors would have interest in them. Nurseries
    would lump all four forms together and call them with the
    burgundy form we more commonly see as all being 'Kasagiyama'.
    I agree with that. Where we get into trouble is when lumped
    Maples are selected out and then later sold as being in this
    case a 'Beni osakazuki' or an 'Aka kasagiyama', which if we
    look at the Ganshukutei web site we can see the aka form
    of this Maple that I have seen still being called 'Kasagiyama'.
    I was rather pleased to see that and to see that form still
    around to be honest. As you know Michael, I have what
    appears to be at this time the old beni form of 'Kasagiyama'
    here.

    Before I saw the photos of the 'Taishaku' I did not know
    of any other forms of 'Ichigyoji'. Don Kleim deliberately
    planted an 'Ichigyoji' and an 'Osakazuki' in the ground next
    to each other to prove in his own way that the Maples are
    quite different from each other. In his mind they were
    not sister seedlings, so I grew up on Maples believing
    that they were not from the same parents or forms of
    each other. Technically, 'Taihai' and 'Osakazuki' are
    synonymous meaning that referring to one Maple
    meant we are referring to the other but again I
    learned them to be different also even though they
    are both the dark green colored leaf. What has to be
    consistent with 'Osakazuki' is not so much the Fall
    color being a crimson red in some areas or a scarlet
    red in some others but what we looked for were the
    red colored samaras. Yes, I've seen some 'Osakazuki'
    sold with yellow to gold colored samaras and I quickly
    dismissed them as being 'Osakazuki'. They could be
    seedlings from the old Maples, 'Osakazuki' and 'Taihai'
    but those seedlings were not true.

    A lot of our dilemma is in who we learned Maples
    from in that select people in California were raised
    on Maples by the Japanese in Japan. Later on we
    had people that grew up in Japan that moved here
    and brought some Maples with them. Most of the
    Europeans had to rely on someone to go to Japan
    to pick up some Maples and bring them in of which
    this did happen. What happened after that is a mystery
    to me and was to others in that some of the names of
    Maples became changed around, meaning the name
    of the Maple that came into Europe became another
    name once it had been in Europe for a short time.
    In one garden in particular in England the names of
    the Maples remained as what those Maples came into
    England as being. After a while as other gardens wanted
    to have some of these Maples some of the names had
    changed from what they were when they were first
    imported or brought back in. The limiting factor was
    that people elsewhere had to go to Japan or have
    contacts in Japan to sort the names out but I am not
    sure this was done but I do know of one person in
    England that was in constant contact with certain
    people here in the US. Then we went through a
    stage whereby named Maples in Japan have indeed
    been granted new names in Europe. We saw the
    same thing happen with Pines that were raised
    and grown here mostly from East Coast nurseries
    and arboretums, but once in Europe the names had
    become changed later without any real reasoning
    given to those people here that gave them or sold
    them the plants to start with.

    There has always been a language barrier not only
    with us here in the US with the Japanese but also
    in the written Kanji with the Japanese themselves.
    When Don Kleim wanted copies of the Koidzumi,
    Nakai, Momotani but not so much the Ogata Maples
    of the World
    books, Don knew the books were written
    in symbols but wanted to have the books translated
    into English. Don made arrangements to buy the
    first three books for $10,000 providing they were
    translated into English and the translation was verified
    by three people in Japan. In other words that the three
    people could agree on the translation but that later
    became quite difficult as the symbols used were
    a little variant to what the newer Kanji was and for
    a while some of the symbols could not be translated.
    So what happened is that professors in a couple of
    Universities had to translate the symbols into the
    newer Kanji and then have the text translated into
    English. It took 8 years for all of this to happen.
    In the interim Don already had the Ogata book and
    his dissertation on Maples and was translated long
    before he got the other three books in . Even then
    Don had three men of Japanese descent here look
    over the translations from the three books before
    he would read the books. It was after reading the
    three books that Don Kleim initiated the largest in
    number of plants Maple importation from Japan
    in 1972. On his way back Don dropped off 27
    varieties of Maples to J.D. in Roseburg, just gave
    them to him. Now we can see several of them
    shown in the various Vertrees and Vertrees/Gregory
    Japanese Maples books because of Don's
    generosity to J.D. There were two other later
    importations that J.D. also benefited from in the
    same manner with Maples dropped off and given
    to him.

    With the two Maples you bought I suggest you
    monitor them for a few years as you may not
    know what they are until a few years down the
    road. One gallon sized Maples can change on
    us rather fast but what we should not see with
    established cultivars of five gallon and larger
    sized Maples is dramatic changes seen in them
    unless we helped cause it in some way. Five
    gallon plants should be old enough to give a
    better indication as to what we have. I cannot
    speak for seedlings raised from true form
    parents though as it has been my experience
    that a seedling 'Bloodgood' for example raised
    from a grafted parent really never does look
    quite like the parent does for year round color.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2005
  5. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Photos removed for updated photos below. 10/18/05 MJH
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2005
  6. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Here are some updated photos from the second week of October. The color is coming through very nicely. What color will the samaras be?
     

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  7. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Just some photos to revitalize the discussion. Nothing to say yet, but maybe in a few weeks. Strange spring leaf form and color.
     

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