Question on feeding citrus

Discussion in 'Citrus' started by RoseLady, Apr 19, 2006.

  1. RoseLady

    RoseLady Active Member

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    If your citrus leaves are green with lighter green and almost yellow tips, what is that plant needing for nutrients?
     
  2. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Are these the older leaves or is the yellowish leaves the younger leaves, or generally the entire tree? What color are the leaf veins? Does the base of the affected leaves have a green delta shape color? Are the leaf veins green WITH a green border, while the rest of the leaf is yellow. Is this tree planted in the ground or container? Do you fertilize the tree with a fertilizer that contains urea as its nitrogen source? How many times a year do you fertilize the tree? HOW OLD is the tree?- Millet
     
  3. RoseLady

    RoseLady Active Member

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    Thanks for responding Millet!
    1) older leaves are the yellowish leaves...it's not really producing new ones. So I' have to say the entire tree.These two trees (and they both look the same) were pulled out of sandy ground last summer and transplanted into 24" wooden "pots" with potting soil/dirt mixture)and have been there till now. They had never really taken root where they were in the ground.(I pulled them out of my sister's yard..she didn't want them....without even digging they came right out) They flowered this spring and now there is even fruit newly starting.
    2) Leaf veins seem to be slightly greener than the rest of the leaf
    3) can't answer green delta shape color question
    4)Border seems to be yellowish...tips are yellow...rest of leaf is green...there is more green than yellow
    5)container planted....with a touch only of horse manure
    6)I fertilized with all purpose tree food in February...it will be time again in May...it was not food dedicated to citrus only
    Next time I will fertilize with Miracle Grow 10-15-15 for Citrus
    7)The trees both seem to be very young. I think they had been recently planted when my sister bought the house a year ago. So maybe going on their second season

    I don't think it's anything major. I think maybe they need nitrogen? But I'm no expert so I don't want to respond without knowing for sure. I wondered if maybe iron chelate?
    Maybe I'm watering incorrectly? Too much or too little? I water deeply once a week and now that it's getting hotter (85 to 90) I will bump it up to twice a week...what do you think?
     
  4. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Lady Rose, I believe your trees are just under nourised. Nitrogen is very water soluble, and is easily leached from the soil with each irrigation, especially for trees growing in containers. You need to fertilize a container tree AT LEAST once a month minimum. I currently have 72 different varieties of containerized citrus trees, and two planted in the ground. The 10-15-15 might be OK for a tree planted in the ground, but a contaier tree will require more nitrogen. I would use a 30-10-10 WITH TRACE MINERALS. This formula should be easy to find at most any box store or nursery. An application of Iron Cheleate would also be in order. Iron deficiency symptoms are: NEW leaves with green veins and otherwise yellow leaf. I would only water when the top three inches of the container become dry, and not on a timed schedule. A better fertilizer plan is to cut the recommended rate in half and feed the tree once ever two weeks from March thought September. - Millet
     
  5. RoseLady

    RoseLady Active Member

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    Thanks Millet! I had a feeling that's what it all was. The 10-15-15 was recommended by one of our local Master Gardners, but I may not have mentioned that they are in "pots." I thought it needed nitrogen. He also recommended that I only feed 3 times a year, but they look like they need food NOW. There is not a lot of new growth other than the flowering and now the fruit. Leaves look very poor. I also think they need to be planted in the ground. We can grow the best citrus here in Tucson in the ground...no need to keep them in pots. I wanted to get them trough their first winter before I planted them in the ground. I think I will start digging holes! Thanks for all your help!
     
  6. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    You can set your trees out at any time. Plant your trees just slightly higher than they grew in in the container. This is VERY IMPORTANT to the future success of the tree. It is advisable to mud-in the root system while back filling the planting hole to remove air pockets and to provide good root-soil contact. Make a basin around each tree. This basin should hold about 5 - 10 gallons of water and is periodically filled to soak the root area of your young trees. As your trees were in a container, some of the media should be removed from the root mass when the tree is planted. This will expose many of the outer roots and allow them to grow quickly into the new planting area provided. If any subfreezing temperatures are forecast after your trees are planted, they should be protected. Water is the most important requirement of the young tree, and it will be used up rapidly by trees with a dense canopy, so just be sure not to let the soil become dry, but do not over water. The need for frequent irrigation will be less as your tree's root system increases in size. Some trees may require watering through the fourth year after planting, however, it all depends on the amount of rain your area annually receives. ONLY DIG A WHOLE BIG ENOUGH FOR THE ROOT SYSTEM TO FIT COMFORTABLY. When you back fill the holes use ONLY the dirt that you removed. Do NOT add any amendments such as peat moss, perlite, or potting soil. Fertilization should commence when swelling buds indicate that growth is beginning. In the first year, fertilizer should be applied about every six weeks from early may until September (I'm guessing for your area) but no later than September. A 6N-6P-6K or 8-8-8 similar analysis is a good general one for in ground citrus trees, and may be used at rates from 1/2 cup for the first application to 1 pint in August, increasing the quantity steadily all season. Higher analysis, mixed formulations such as 12-0-12 or 10-15-15 are used on mature trees. Fertilizers should cover the basin area for the first year. As a precaution against the possible development of deficiencies, it is wise to use a fertilizer containing micro elements during the first few years after planting. Many home owners have grown citrus trees successfully without any attention to soil pH. If the trees do not have a healthy foliage, however, and the cause is not obviously an insect or disease infestation, you may have a nutrient deficiency. You can then take a soil sample to your extension office or even a local garden center to check the pH. If the soil is not in the range of 5.5 to 6.5 the situation should be corrected. If your soil is naturally basic, it will be very difficult to change the pH, and this should not be attempted. I wish you GOOD LUCK with your trees. - Millet
     
  7. RoseLady

    RoseLady Active Member

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    Thanks SO much Millet!! Good information here. I need to decide what spot to plant them in and then I will get it done. Thanks for the instructions on planting. I will follow this planting system. I'll let you know how it all turns out!
     
  8. roachslayer

    roachslayer Member

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    Noobie question on watering... my water ph is 8-9. Does that mean I need to use distilled water (around 5-6?) for my plants? I have various citrus trees.

    Fruit is dropping on my kumquats and mandarins this week after shipping from fourwinds and transplanting to cedar chips + peat last week (I didnt have an CHC at the time). Maybe ph is unrelated to fruit dropping, but I want to be sure I have the right nutrients in any case. I dont have any 5-1-3 ratio fertilizer, but I do have some soluable 20-14-14 that fourwinds sent me, and Dr Earths 7-4-2 for citrus, and dr earths 3-3-3 + trace elements liquid.

    Any tips would help. I just got my order of CHC in too, so am thinking about transplanting again.
     
  9. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    A pH of 8-9 is quite high. You could use rain water, distilled water. Citrus use a high amount of nitrogen, and a rather high amount of potassium, but almost no phosphorus. therefore your fertilizer 20-14-14 has a very high amount of phosphorus in relation to the amount of nitrogen and potassium (the 1st & 3rd numbers). The formulation 20-14-14 would be OK to use on a tree planted outside in the ground, but I would not use it on a container tree. The two Dr. Earth fertilizers do not contain enough nutrition to properly feed the tree. Further because Dr. Earth fertilizer is an organic fertilizer, a citrus tree cannot utilize the ingredients, until they have been changed into a forum that the tree will be able to absorb. This is done by bacteria, which would work in the soil, but poorly in a container. IF you cannot find fertilizer with the 5-1-3 ratio of elements, then you should be able to locate a fertilizer with the formula 30-10-10 WITH TRACE MINERALS - purchase that formula and use it at the rate of 300 PPM nitrogen, a minimum of once a month, twice a month would be better. Cut the use rate in half from the middle of November to the end of February. Good luck to you and your tree. - Millet (1,301 to go-)
     
  10. roachslayer

    roachslayer Member

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    Blast it all.... I can't even find 25-5-15 online, let alone locally. Anyone have a good source for this? Ideally with Trace Minerals.
     
  11. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    25-5-15 W/trace minerals is manufactured by:

    J.R. Peters, Inc. (Major fertilizer manufacturer to the greenhouse industry)
    6656 Grant Way
    Allentown, PA 18106

    WWW.JRPETERS.COM

    The Peters company markets it under the name: Jack's Professional Water Soluble Fertilizer 25-5-15 HPF. It is Peters product number 77900

    Phone No. 1-866-522-5752

    It is sold only in 25-lb. bags.

    I purchased mine from the Peter's distributor here in Denver,Colorado.

    Millet (1,298-)
     
  12. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    It is a small world. Today I was reading the magazine "Grower Talks", and I seen a 1/3 page add for Peters 25-5-15 fertilizer. - Millet (1,297-)
     
  13. Hazboom

    Hazboom Member

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    Thank you for the discussion it has helped me out with my trees!
     
  14. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hazboom, your fig site was quite impressive and very interesting.

    Millet (1,295-) Susan B Anthony List - Washington DC
     
  15. Hazboom

    Hazboom Member

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    Thank you very much for your comments.

    I have been building this web site on my spare time.
     
  16. roachslayer

    roachslayer Member

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    I finally got me some Jacks Pro 25-5-15 HPF. What PPM or TSP per Gallon are folks mixing for proper citrus feeding?
     
  17. Ray from PA

    Ray from PA Active Member

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    Were you able to find a small one or did you have to buy the 25 lb. bag? I would love to have it (I'm currently using Miracle-gro 30-10-10 for rhododendrons) but I don't want a 25 lb. bag for 2 trees.
     
  18. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Using a 25-5-15, fertilize your citrus tree at 300 PPM N. How often you fertilize, has a lot to do with the type of growth medium that the tree is planted in. However, fertilize the tree a MINIMUM of once a month, twice a month is much better. I have all my container citrus (104 different varieties) growing in CHC/peat, which is an excellent draining medium, therefore, I fertilize with every watering during the warm months. All containerized citrus growing at the University of California's Citrus Colonal Protection Program (CCPP) are fertilized at 300 PPM with every single watering. You want to get as much growth during spring and summer as possible. - Millet (1,271-)
     
  19. roachslayer

    roachslayer Member

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    Thanks Millet. Just the info I needed. Yeah, I am using CHC, and I assume by "every watering" you refer to every week or so, based on how long CHC retains water (I'm noticing it retains water quite a while).

    On that note... its a bit conflicting. I've read that CHC makes it impossible to overwater, yet it also retains water, and I read that citrus done like to be constanly moist. I dunno. I've only been doing this a couple months, so far so good with CHC.

    Ray, I have a 25lb bag, and had a very hard time finding a supplier. Even official dealers of Jacks fertilizer dont all carry this mix. It will last me forever, or until its shelf life expires! (i dunno what that would be). I dont think there are smaller quantities.
     
  20. Ray from PA

    Ray from PA Active Member

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    Oh well, I'll just continue to use my Miracle-gro rhododendron fertilizer. It's worked well enough so far.
     
  21. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    roachslayer, citrus are native to the wet subtropical, and tropical regions of China and the Malay Archipelago, growing as under story trees beneath the taller trees of the area. Citrus require a lot of nutrition, with good levels of moisture. Remember over watering does not harm, nor kill citrus trees. What actually causes damage and eventually death, when a tree is over watered, is not the water applied, but the lack of air. In mediums with poor drainage, minimal air porosity, and also older mediums that have degraded, the water fills all the pours in the soil driving out the oxygen. The tree actually suffocates and dies. With CHC/peat, (or any highly aerated medium), the water absorbs into the coconut chips (up to 7 times the chips weight), but does not plug up all the air pours. In fact generally a CHC is 40 to 60 percent empty space, thus contains 40 to 60 percent root zone air. In a traditional potting soil medium, a new fresh peat based potting soil medium starts out with 15-20 percent porosity, and quickly degrades down to below 10 percent in the first year. The average life span of a citrus tree growing in a commercial potting soil, sold at most nurseries, is less than two years. Citrus leaves have a high level of transpiration, therefore, citrus root need moisture, what citrus do not like is a dry medium. When you water water well. - Millet (1,270-)
     
  22. roachslayer

    roachslayer Member

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    For anyone following this, 300 PPM N with Jacks Pro 25-5-15 is .9 tsp per gallon, or just under 1 tsp.

    I used this to calculate:
    http://www.firstrays.com/fertcalc.htm

    Also note, 25 lb bag is going to last a looooong time if you are only watering a few trees. Maybe those of us with a 25lb bag sitting around barely getting used could offer small quantities out to interested parties. And if the manufacturer doesnt like that idea... well... they need to offer smaller quantities for crying out loud. :)

    In any case, it was pricey. But whats $40 to $50 one-time for fertilizer, compared to several dead $50 trees? It was worth the investment for me, granted I could have indeed gone with some cheaper alternatives of course.
     
  23. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    By weight to obtain 300 PPM nitrogen using a 25-5-15 fertilizer add 8 grams per gallon. The reason that Peters Co. only offers the fertilizer in 25-lb. bags, is because they sell to the commercial nursery business, and not retail to individual customers. I purchase the fertilizer 50-lbs. at a time. If anyone would like to purchase in 5-lb. quantities, I would be happy to sell them some. - Millet (1,270-)
     
  24. Ray from PA

    Ray from PA Active Member

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    I'm in. If either of you want to send me even just a couple of pounds of the Jack's 25-5-15 I'd be more than happy to pay you for the fertilizer and shipping and handling.

    Millet, have you ever posted pics of your 100+ citrus tree collection? I would love to see it.
     
  25. L R Harner

    L R Harner Member

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    i too would be interested in a few LBs
     

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