Purple-black leaves, bright green "keys"

Discussion in 'Maples' started by KarinL, Sep 29, 2007.

  1. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I saw what I presume to be a JM in someone's yard a few weeks back, with very dark leaves, fairly narrow leaf sections but not really extreme, and lots of lovely green keys contrasting beautifully. Any idea which one I might have been looking at? It was about a 5-tall plant, sort of dome shaped at that height, and I think the leaves were quite horizontally held.

    If no ideas, what are some of the best ones for dark purple black (not red) leaves?
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2007
  2. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hard to say, maybe 'Red Pygmy'. Maybe worth a "Search" on this forum for pics. 'Trompenburg' {red samaras} is a large dark purple and 'Moonfire' {red samaras} is dark, also.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2007
  3. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Attention Sambucus "Black Lace" have similar leaves too,How ever if maple if posssible
    "Nigrum"or "Bloodgood"...alex
     
  4. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Karin ... like Alex says it sounds like a Sambucus
    Was it like this? The 'Black Lace' mentioned by Alex is finer
     

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  5. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    No it's not a Sambucus; I'm familiar with that, but thanks for the thought. Besides recognizing the leaves as maple, it had a huge crop of maple keys hanging off it, or whatever the seeds are called.

    It was also definitely not a tree form, which I think Bloodgood is and which I know Trompenburg is; it was a fairly mature arching shrub. I believe it had less red in the leaves than Trompenburg, which I have. It really seemed to me to have no trace of red in the leaves. They were a real black.

    Chimera, I tried a search, and came up empty, but also couldn't find a way to search the photo gallery. So I will have to do some book flipping... or the old "ask the owner" trick perhaps, if I get frantic enough.

    But thanks for the ideas... will let you know if I find out.
     
  6. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Karin, If you go to the ''Acer palm.cultivars {photos}'' at www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=208 then use the drop down "Search This Forum" in the upper right title bar putting in "Red Pygmy", threads and photos should come up. Same goes for searching the "The Genus Acer" subforum. If you can give us an idea of the leaf shape , maybe from something in the photo forum, it may help. Maybe a pic of the maple you saw , if possible, showing habit, bark, leaf shape {juvenile growth can vary from mature}, and seeds could help {seedlings can be fun to grow}. If you do look at it again , maybe check to see if it's grafted. As you mention the homeowner may know, but often they don't. It's hard to ID a lot of the maples, there are a lot of seedling grown ones around, with the various colour and leaf shape changes they can have, growing conditions, etc. It sounds interesting and can't think of any offhand such as you describe, and some seem to have bloomed and seeded prolifically this year. Reminds me of an unnamed 5' totally pink and white leaved ,no green, one I lost and haven't been able to track down since. Leaf shape or similar may be a good start. A. p. 'Kinran' { pics taken Sept. 28/07} comes to mind as a possibility in regards to height, seed production and colour, but maybe not as dark as you describe and now going into it's yellowish fall colour. Thought you were on a conifer binge, be careful with these maples.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 1, 2007
  7. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    The samaras being green does narrow it down a bit, but probably not enough. Book flipping might get you somewhere, but don't decide on a name without confirming live specimens (plants viewed in person that seem to have exactly the same features as the one being studied). Even then...there are so many introductions, some closely similar to one another. Many that look fancy may, in fact, have been sold as seedlings or be seedlings even if they were sold under a cultivar name (like 'Bloodgood'). Many seed-raised purpleleaf Japanese maples are still sold.
     
  8. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Point taken, Ron, that it needn't be a named cultivar; it was so special that I hadn't thought of that. And even if it is named, I'm prepared not to find the exact one but sure would like to find a similar one.

    Quite right, Chimera, that I have been conifer binging, and since I don't see too many maples in 4" pots it's easier to be judicious with those. $120 a pot does send one home to do some research before buying! Not that I've bought any at that price... yet. I did see a Beni shi en that looked very nice earlier in the summer, a little more filigree than the one I have in mind though. And at the same nursery, same price, a Tsugu...something with broader leaves than my holy grail. Anyway, I do know how to search the forums for a name, thanks, but it is searching without one that is stumping me! I'm going to have to just scroll through all the pictures one day, in addition to flipping through a book. That is a lovely one in your photos.

    I'll have to get a photo before leaf drop; just haven't been back to that neighbourhood in a while.

    Thanks again!
     
  9. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    As Ron mentioned green samaras narrows it down. The tree's age and exposure to sun will also affect the flower and seed production. Maybe we should be posting photos of the seeds along with the tree and leaf pics. It might help with ID as some cultivars seed seem to have distinctive characteristics and their own beauty. Other cultivars can be quite variable on the same tree regarding samara angle, size, and such. Have had good luck with the 2,3 gal. sizes, but generally shy away from the young grafts which usually take more care and susceptible to breakage, disease not apparent, etc. Have bought a couple in the $10.00 4" pots, but they need protection, especially from snow here. Nice to look at those larger ones and maybe hard to resist , but gives one an idea of how they can develop. If unable to ID the tree and you have to have it, you might try to get it propagated. 'Moonfire' has red samaras. 'Tsukushigata' {pic 1 +2}, 'Red Pygmy' {pic 3} have green samaras. Not very good pics, but just in case. All pics taken Sept 28/07 .
     

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    Last edited: Oct 11, 2007
  10. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Browsing through the Pocket Guide to Japanese Maples I have so far identified Umegae as a possibility, but both my daughter and I think the leaflets of the shrub we saw were even thinner. That also rules out Tsukushi gata, which has bigger leaflets that Umegae. These are the only two I've found so far that are mentioned in the book as having green samaras (there, I've learned a new word!). I'm assuming that's the one in your photo #1, Chimera, and it looks very nice indeed.

    Still browsing...
     
  11. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Right, thank you , 'Tsukushigata'. Also has green stems, not that usual as far as I've noticed for the dark leaved cultivars. One thing that seemed consistent on this tree with the samaras , at least this year, was it seemed the wing on each pair were of an unequal size, one obviously larger than the other. Don't know if that is characteristic. It is only getting 1/3 to 1/2 day sun and might seed up more in full sun or with better pollination conditions, I suppose. Seems it has had more seed in previous years, maybe getting too shaded. Not familiar with 'Umegae', description and pic in Vertrees ''Japanese Maples" 2nd edition sounds interesting, and can't remember ever having seen it. Maybe other members are familiar with and possibly growing it. Pics and comments in the photo gallery , which you've likely seen, seems prolific from a young age.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2007
  12. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Latest candidate from book flipping is Shojo - does anyone know whether it has green samaras?

    I should be able to get a photo in the next week or so of the plant I'm trying to identify.
     
  13. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Karin,

    Sorry, Shojo has red samaras. Happy hunting, though! Sounds stunning.

    -E
     
  14. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Thank you Emery!

    I finally got back to the area yesterday with camera in hand, and it was even daylight... and - pffft - dead camera batteries. Unable to completely abandon my mission, I did steal a leaf (it is a big shrub, so I hope it's forgiveable), and took a photo of it at home. The leaf is 6 cm long, the stem 3 cm, and the purple-black colour has bronzed up a bit for fall while the samaras have gone blond/red. What is striking upon looking at the leaf and again at the various cultivars in the book is that this leaf, and it was typical of the whole plant, has leaflets that are all quite forward-reaching; that is, they do not splay outward at the stem as much as any that I can find in the book. The only candidate I found based on that characteristic is Shikage ori nishiki. Description of the colour in the book is close to what we observed, but there is no mention of samara colour.

    Hunting indeed. I hope that rings a bell with someone.
     

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  15. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Karin, Would you remember if the midrib was yellowish green when you first seen the tree ? Stem colour, guessing green ? Is it shaded and what fall colour does it appear to be changing to, yellowish orange or red, or maybe not apparent yet ? Still thinking 'Kinran' could be a possibility if it's a grafted tree, or maybe it's already ruled out ? Leaf and petiole {leaf stem} size will vary , but the shape and lobe serration does look similar to 'Kinran', and the "forward-reaching" leaves sounds similar. The leaf's midrib looks dark in the pic and the leaf base is not straight across, though. That wouldn't be characteristic of 'Kinran'. Maybe other members will know more or it might be worth ringing the doorbell.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2007
  16. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I am getting quite a lesson in what to take note of about JMs, and I did fail to take adequate note of the midrib and stem colour. I see the argument for Kinran. I'll get a photo next week, will study the shrub as a whole, and will consider trying to talk to the owner.

    To be continued...! And thanks again.
     
  17. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Guess 'Kinran' is a longshot ,but may be possible. Have it in full sun and thinking it may appear darker if shaded. 'Umegae' does sound interesting, can't remember seeing it in the local retail outlets or in the local commercial growers' lists, would be interesting to know of a source locally. You seem pretty determined to grow the one you've seen, hopefully someone can ID it correctly, and you might be able to get a retail outlet to import it if not easily available here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2007
  18. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Well, it was a wild and rainy night, as the days are getting shorter (I get to this area of town most Sunday nights) so only this one of my photos turned out. The overall views of the plant are just black frames :-) but I did observe in person that it is an arching shrub, definitely not a tree. Anyhow, the fall colour is obviously reddish.

    Chimera, I'm not determined to grow this one (especially after noting last night that is does attain a good size!) but just stubbornly curious to identify it. I'd like to grow something with that colour combination, but my conditions might not be conducive, even if I could get it.

    Apropos availability, I found a very good selection of unusual maples at the $100 size at Cedar Rim last week, but am hoping to find smaller sizes somewhere in this country...

    Many thanks for all the help with this!
     

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  19. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Don't think it is 'Kinran', person seems to need a waterproof camera lately. Usually a good selection of smaller trees {$30 -35 2 gal. size with good roots} at the retail outlets in the spring. The $10 cutting grown ones can be slow and vulnerable. Some good commercial growers and propagators in the valley with quality trees. Think it's easiest to stay away from the young grafts if possible , too vulnerable to breakage, need extra care, etc. Referring to trees to be planted in the ground, not growing them in pots.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2007
  20. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    "Oshio beni" for me
     
  21. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Think 'Oshio beni' has red samaras Alex. Beautiful tree though.
     
  22. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Whitney Red ?
     
  23. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Alex, the basal lobes on that one also seem, from the photo in the handbook, to grow at an acute angle to the stem, that is, they stick out.

    I will get a photo next spring and next summer of the colours, and then the weather will also be more conducive to catching the homeowner outside to ask - maybe it is, after all, just a seedling.

    Thank you for all the help!
     

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