Ukigumo or Murakumo?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by maplesandpaws, Sep 9, 2011.

  1. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

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    Location:
    KS -> northern AL, USA
    My young Ukigumo bit the dust this summer - the unrelenting heat was just too much for it. (We had 52 days of 100+ temps, beating out the record that had been standing since 1936. Yippee! NOT)

    So, I now need to replace this tree. I like the Ukigumo, but also really like the (more consistent?) white-ness of the Murakumo. Basically, I'm looking for a nice, mostly white-leafed tree, preferably with smaller leaves. I have a Ghost Dancer already.

    What would you recommend? Does need to be a tree that can deal with the heat, unfortunately. Will be protected from wind and, obviously, be in a brightly shaded location.

    Thanks!!!
     
  2. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Murakumo will burn in strong sun so if you get it you must give it some shelter or it
    will not look spreckled with white.
     
  3. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Location:
    Southwest France
    I would say that Murakumo is more sensible to sun and heat that Ukigumo.
    Have you considered Kagiri Nishiki?, it has a lot of white and takes the sun and heat better. Also there are white choices in other species like campestre 'Carnival'

    Gomero
     
  4. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Location:
    ROME Italy zone9/b
    the best for my experience in central Italy, is Kasen nishiki:)
     
  5. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    I second 'Carnival' and 'Kasen nishiki' - 2 good white variegate suggestions!
     
  6. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    Ukigumo and Ukigumo nishiki are quite susceptible
    to salt burn, much more so than Floating Clouds and
    Murakumo. Floating Clouds (with the suffused white
    on an otherwise green leaf as opposed to a cream to
    white variegation as part of the leaf) can handle more
    intense sun than the other three Maples. Murakumo
    does very well once adapted out in an open setting in
    the Pacific Northwest but in more temperate regions
    some afternoon shade may be required to limit sun
    scorch. True form Ukigumo and Ukigumo nishiki
    and the hime form super dwarf Okukuji nishiki do
    not like any hot direct afternoon sun where we are.
    They will burn up easier with mid day and afternoon
    sun than Murakumo and Floating Clouds will. Floating
    Clouds is the more tolerant of saline soils and is the
    more wind tolerant than the other four Maples. I've
    seen container grown Ukigumo, Ukigumo nishiki and
    Okukuji nishiki in select Oregon nurseries out in the
    open until June and then they will be placed under
    shade cloth for protection. Murakumo by contrast
    can stay out in the open until mid to late July in
    some locations such as Eugene, Gresham and
    Boring but grown in Medford and even, more to
    the immediate North, in Roseburg may need some
    afternoon wind and shade protection by the onset
    of July.

    Jim
     
  7. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

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    Location:
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    Mr. Shep, if you could clarify something please: I thought Ukigumo was Floating Clouds (ie, the translation); are these different cultivars you're referring to? If you could elaborate, I would greatly appreciate it. :)

    I will definitely check out the other cultivars suggested. Thank you all very much!
     
  8. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Re: Ukigumo - Floating Clouds

    I've addressed Floating Clouds and Ukigumo
    before in this forum. All of the synonym names
    listed below the cultivar names in the Vertrees
    second edition Japanese Maples book exist or
    are now defunct. The photo on page 125 of a
    Kleim Maple in the second edition book is how
    Ukigumo used to look like in the nursery trade.
    In Oregon there is much more white in the leaf,
    rather than on top of the leaf like it used to be.
    All you have to do is peer into the Maple photo
    gallery in this forum and see what people have
    posted photos of their Ukigumo and compare the
    coloring to the photo from the book. No one, aside
    from a very select few, bothers to ask why isn't
    my plant the same as the one in the book.

    Actually in some nurseries what has been proposed
    as being the clouds is actually the effects of Powdery
    Mildew on the leaf in some locations. To prove to me
    that there was a fungus present on the leaf I used to
    rub my finger over the leaf and see how much white
    residue was on my finger - the "finger test" is what
    it used to be called. Ukigumo, the old plant is
    highly susceptible to Powdery Mildew in some
    locations. Much less susceptible is Ukigumo nishiki
    and Floating Clouds seems almost resistant to the
    fungus.

    There are three forms of plants in Oregon all being
    sold as Ukigumo. The more common Maple in more
    recent years is Ukigumo nishiki, a much taller growing
    plant than Ukigumo. The difference in growth sizes
    alone easily tells which Maple is which by way of
    Ukigumo being a dwarf form, usually grows to between
    2-3 meters tall in 20 years and the other Maple is
    a semi-dwarf that can eventually grow from 3-5 meters
    tall - 9-15 feet and sometimes taller. Floating Clouds
    also is grown and sold in Oregon by a few nurseries.
    The old parent plant originated at Henderson Experimental
    Gardens as a seedling selection from Ukigumo from
    Japan. The basic structure of the leaves are close to
    being the same but Floating Clouds has a more star
    shaped leaf with the side lobes being a bit wider than
    the old Ukigumo was. Floating Clouds growth habit is
    more of a bun shape as compared to most Ukigumo
    and grows about as wide as it does tall. Actually
    less tall and less wide than a Ukigumo does as
    the nodal lengths of Floating Clouds are much
    shorter than Ukigumo is. The main difference is
    color as the Floating Clouds has what seems like
    a series of layers of white splotches on top of
    and intermixed in the leaf and less overall pink
    coloration in the early Spring than Ukigumo. In
    some areas the so-called white in Ukigumo is a
    cream color at first that fades to white, whereas
    Floating Clouds white is always white, never cream
    colored when first seen. Essentially the cream to
    white in Ukigumo is very reminiscent of a heavy
    dose of sand dusting, whereas the white in Floating
    Clouds is a splotch. If we review what Mr. Vertrees
    wrote about Fu in the earlier editions, we can
    determine that the type of Fu on Ukigumo (sand
    dusting) is not the same as the Fu is on Floating
    Clouds (splotch). Thus the reasoning for Floating
    Clouds being named as the variegation is closer
    to being a mottled white effect on an otherwise
    mid to dark green leaf, whereas the other is a
    sand dusting with pink overtones on a lighter
    shaded green leaf, on the old plant.

    Jim
     
  9. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

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    Location:
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    Wow, thanks a bunch for the detailed explanation, I greatly appreciate it. Do you know of any nurseries that seem to consistently have/carry the Ukigumo and/or Floating Clouds? I know nothing is exact when it comes to plants, but I try to know with some certainty what I'm buying. :) From what you've said, though, it seems that for the general summer climate here in the midwest, the Floating Clouds would do best as opposed to the various Ukigumo ones as we can get very hot with intense sun and typically have a good amount of wind (though my maples always are protected as best I can from both).
     

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