Tree ferns in New York

Discussion in 'Annuals, Biennials, Perennials, Ferns and Bulbs' started by RichardL, Mar 25, 2007.

  1. RichardL

    RichardL Member

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    Re: tazmanian fern

    Last summer I bought about 30 tazmanian tree ferns at Home Depot and planted them in a very shady area under some white pine trees. They did great and looked great. I live about 20 miles north of New York City (zone 6b). They were in place in the soil over the winter. They are all brown right now. I did not know of any procedure for wintering them over.

    Will they come back in the spring?

    Is there anything I should be doing now?

    Thank you for your help.
     
  2. Liz

    Liz Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Re: tazmanian fern

    If it is the ferns I am used to here they do die back. [Dixonia Antarctica ] If you feel in the top you will probably find the new curls of fronds waiting to come out. The best way to water them is to drip a hose in the top of them. We have had a huge drought here and the wild ones are surviving. They also regenerate after bushfires. My garden ones are not looking as spry as normal but the rain the other day has done wonders. They will survive outdoors sheltered under trees. Tasmania gets snow and so does Victoria.

    Liz
     
  3. RichardL

    RichardL Member

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    Re: tazmanian fern

    Liz, thanks for the info. Once the threat of a deep freeze is over up here, appx April 15th. I will start the irrigation system and keep them moist. In the meantime I have brown and crispy fronds - should I prune them off?

    Hopefully I have a chance with these guys, they really looked good!
     
  4. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Re: tazmanian fern

    Fronds on outdoor ferns are an annual phenomenon, although the plant is perennial. They might be helping now to keep the crown from freezing, but in almost all cases need to be pruned off as or just before the new croziers emerge. If I were you I wouldn't water right into the crown until the dry season.

    By the way, next time you have a question, feel free to start your own thread. This is an unnecessarily cumbersome way to get your question to people who might be interested in answering it - they have to read all the way through the thread to get to your question, and might quit before they realize there is one.
     
  5. bcgift52

    bcgift52 Active Member

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    Re: tazmanian fern

    If they are Dicksonia Antarctica, I would think they're all dead now. They are barely hardy here in a Zone 8 (with winter protection).
     
  6. Liz

    Liz Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Re: tazmanian fern

    What is zone 8 pls. Rough geographic area. These ferns are cold tolerant as Tassie is not exactly the warmest place on earth. Those of you in very cold areas could keep them in tubs and move them to a sheltered area such as along a building or even in a shed. Just make sure they come out into natural light as soon as your worst winter is over. You might also try covering the top with hession and straw. If the old fronds are not doing anything cut them up into smallish pieces and use them as mulch around the base to recreate the forest floor leaf mulch. This is the one I am speaking about.

    www.paradigm4.com.au/mainka/ern14.htm

    www.pbase.com/shades/feb

    Liz
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2007
  7. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Zone 8 is roughly a Vancouver / Seattle climate, with winter lows as cold as -12C.
     
  8. smivies

    smivies Active Member

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    If they were Tasmanian tree ferns (if they had a 'trunk' they probably were that or similar), they are now dead as bcgift52 implies. Not sure what your coldest temperature was this winter but it was certainly below 10ºF & definitely more than once.

    Simon
     
  9. RichardL

    RichardL Member

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    Thanks for all the updates and direction.

    Nice ferns in those pics Liz!

    We had the lowest temps at around 0F. The ferns were labelled "Tazmanian Tree Fern". I am at work right now, but I may have an original label that can offer more info.

    They are about 6-8 inches across and high - no trunk. They could almost pass as ground cover.
     
  10. Weekend Gardener

    Weekend Gardener Active Member 10 Years

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    I have seen the odd specimens, looking quite mature, in the City of London, seemingly quite happy growing outside. I can't say if the owners give it any special protection, as I have not visited London in the winter for many years. But I notice that those specimens I see seem to be relatively sheltered and close to buildings. I doubt that they will survive temperatures colder than -10C, especially if there is a combination of prolonged freezing, and frequent freeze-thaw cycles.

    Our local temperatures dipped to lower than -10C this past winter, and remained frozen for quite some time. I have recorded temperatures as low as -17C. For the price I pay for my specimen, I am not going to chance it. It shall remain in a container and be moved to the cold greenhouse in the winter.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2007
  11. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    The trunk emerges over a period of years, as each year's fronds emerge on top of where the last ones were.

    Tip for future plant purchases: research cold hardiness! If you bought them in the outdoor plant section of HD, that is not well done of them to sell them for outdoor use in your area. Of course you may have bought them in the indoor plant section.

    By the way I note that the moderator has remodelled this into a separate thread; thank you Daniel!
     
  12. RichardL

    RichardL Member

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    The snow has melted back enough, so this weekend I will be able get down and dirty and take a good look at the trunks themselves.

    I looked for a label to get exact details, but now remember the label was stuck to the plastic pot the plants came in. The plants were offered in the outdoor section next to grasses, etc. I do disticly remember "Tazmanian Tree Fern", it had such a good ring to it, and the plants tolerated full shade.

    My property borders parkland, has 80 foot trees with an understory of white pines. There are large sections that weeds don't even grow in! I have the challenge to find and keep shrubs and ground cover in these areas. I finally planted a mix of ivy, pachysandra, and the ferns. It looked great and everything wintered over OK, except possibly the ferns...

    I appreciate all the input, including becoming a new thread!
     
  13. Liz

    Liz Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Please don't be too hasty getting rid of them if they really are of Tasmanian origin. Wait and see what the warmer weather brings. If they have developed some stem (fury and old frond stumps) then I suspect they may still be viable. As I mentioned before Tasmania can be very cold in winter about same south as Boston is north and there is no warm current to keep it nice. Even there summers are susally only in the high 20'c.
    Liz
     
  14. Weekend Gardener

    Weekend Gardener Active Member 10 Years

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    You description of the location in which you have does ferns suggest that it is likely of a warmer microclimate. I agree with Liz, let the warm weather reveal the truth. You should see fiddle heads byt the time the temperature gets near 20 C. (Our specimen is just starting to show new growth after a period with the ambient temperatures of 10-18C.)
     
  15. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Actually, there's a huge difference between the climate in Tasmania and New York. Towards the pole from Tasmania is 2,500km of open ocean, whereas towards the pole from New York is 2,500km of continental landmass. The result is that Tasmania is kept warm in winter by the water, and very rarely gets colder than -10°C, while New York is subject to bitterly cold air which has no water under it to keep it warm; temperatures can reach down to -30°C or less. The continental cold air is also very dry, and can freeze-dry plants like tree ferns that don't have any adaptation to prevent winter water loss.

    In the USDA zone classification, Tasmania is zone 8 (central mountains) to zone 10 (north coast); New York is zone 4 (Adirondack Mts) to zone 6 (NY City).

    I will be extremely surprised if these ferns are still alive.
     
  16. RichardL

    RichardL Member

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    I understand and agree with the facts, logic and explanation from Michael, but honestly hope, by luck, or whatever measure that those entities don't hold true! This past winter was pretty mild, it did get to about 2F a few nights, not much snow.

    The ferns are in an area where there is a fence about 30 feet north and west - so all serious winds are diminished. Even though the ferns are directly under white pine trees, whose lowest branches are about 10 feet off the ground, with no direct sunlight, the exposure is south.

    I am about 20 miles north of NY City, zone 6B. The area is somewhat warmed by the ocean. The closer you get to the city, the less snow, and yes, you get REAL cold further inland. The Adirondacks are about 200 miles north, and as zone 4 indicates - it is another world! Absolutely gorgeous for any mountain activity, my hiking and backpacking up there has shown me that it is cold!

    I do not plan to touch anything until a good length of warmer weather has taken hold. I will certainly post any planned actions first to get more of this valuable feedback.

    These plant are probably babies, as I bought and planted them last summer.

    One current concern is if I should snip off the dead fronds? If so, when?

    Thanks.
     
  17. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    I'd leave them; just let them droop down the trunk, where they help provide extra insulation.
     
  18. RichardL

    RichardL Member

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    Since a picture is worth a thousand words, I have attached some shots of my fern situation. Looking over much of my landscaping I am noticing that many plants have not wintered over well. Some Rhotodendrums and eunonymous look dry. We had a very mild winter that had decent percipitation. These plants have always done well.

    I am preparing to accept that due to the same conditions all the new ferns may be dead. But as we discussed I will wait well into the warm weather before I make any moves...

    Any feedback, other ideas or thoughts are appreciated!

    Take a look:
     

    Attached Files:

  19. saltcedar

    saltcedar Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    For future reference: You actually want snow cover. The soil just below the snow is just
    freezing 0c/32f or a little lower. Your uncovered plants experienced the full brunt of the
    cold and drying Winter winds.

    Regards
    Chris.
     
  20. Liz

    Liz Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Looking at the pic they are just babies. The fronds look as tho they may have been green when they left this mortal coil???? I would still wait but it may well be that this weather described above has deceased them. In their natural habitat they survive in deep leaf litter and gullies down creek embankments. When I get young ones around here they pop up in all sorts of hidden crevisses (sp) Always in a well protected area. May be if you want to go on with them you need to provide straw or mulch type protection till they establish. OR grow them in containers that can be sunk into the garden in good weather and removed to protected areas in winter. They like to be watered from the top where the fronds come out. In the forest where they grow this is how they get their water dripping down from the canopes of Mountain Ash 60 to 80 feet above.

    http://farrer.csu.edu.au/ASGAP/APOL9/mar98-4.html

    Liz
     
  21. RichardL

    RichardL Member

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    Yes, these were little guys planted in July '06. They were healthy, green and looked great. We really did not have much snow cover this winter so these guys did face the full brunt of the weather. As mentioned I am concerned for some of the other plants that also look bad.

    I plan to wait, but if they do not come back, I want to get replacements. I still have my receipts, so at least I will be able to get store credit :-) (Home Depot guarantees all plants for a year, with receipt).

    Until fall I will keep the area moist and will probably be OK. At that time does it make sense to cover the entire area with netting with a few inches of leaves under the net?

    If I keep the plants in their containers then will the root growth be inhibited?

    I am an avid hiker and backpacker, and in the mountains north of here (Catskills, Adirondacks, White Mountains) I have seen many beautiful ferns and areas that are blanketed with ferns. Those areas, like Liz said are usually in a ravine, near water, etc. It is a beautiful sight, so I am rather determined to duplicate that at home...

    I have a Koi pond, and the shady areas around it screams for ferns. The other areas are also under the trees.

    Thanks...
     
  22. Liz

    Liz Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I don't think it hurts them to be in pots at all. Just give them good leaf litter/compost. Feed them a bit of bone meal (nothing fancy) and keep them damp not soggy.. Make sure they are sturdy in their pots so the wind will not blow them loose. I have just come back from one of my work runs and the road had so many tree ferns along it they were like weeds. Because the descriptions I am getting of yr winter weather I am not sure about the netting overthem with leaves but I honestly can't see why it would not work. Maybe you could even incorporate branches overthem that have been pruned from somewhere else. Make a mini climate.

    Liz
     
  23. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Ah well if that's ivy planted with them it'll soon overrun everything anyway (and local woods too!) so you'll have your ground covered. Nice place. Natural waterfall?
     
  24. RichardL

    RichardL Member

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    Yes, that's Ivy. As mentioned, my property is extremely shady so I have basically become desperate to cover some of the ground. Ivy was my last choice, and I'll keep it under control. As you can see in the earlier pictures there is more to go. I also have many Hostas which are not visible as yet. The mix I put together looks nice, my hope was that the ferns will grow above the others. Since it looks like I'm "zone challenged" I'll have to protect the ferns - new or survivors...

    Thank you for the compliments, no that is not a natural stream (that would be nice), it is the waterfall for my Koi Pond. It took me a full year to build it - overall 28 by 16 feet, with 3 pumps pushing about 20,000 gals/hour max. It is a long story how I got to this point (worth another thread), but I simply love landscaping - the plants, water and rocks. Dig a few inches in the ground and you'll hit a rock. The county is named Rockland County for an obvious reason - rocks everywhere! I come home to this as a contrast to the breakneck pace of Wall Street where I work, you gotta love it!

    The attached pictures are from 2005, before I planted the ferns. The area beyond the pond is one of the sections I attempted to raise the ferns, and to the left of the waterfall in the other shot is another section. So shady that weeds won't even grow!

    I have been successful with Boxwood, Eunonymous (sp), Andromeda, Yew, (some) Rhotodendrum, Burning Bush, Holly, Japanese Maple, Pachysandra, Hosta, Ivy, and some grasses. Any other ideas are welcome - especially any kind of fern that may be more cold
    tolerant.

    Thank you.
     

    Attached Files:

  25. Liz

    Liz Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Just another thought, given that rock is a major component of yr. soil could it be acting like ice blocks in winter and making yr area for ferns even colder. I would be cheating and growing them in pots untill they get bigger. Meanwhile building up a really good forest floor of litter just like it is down by the creeks. Ferns do grow on the rocks but they don't obviously get as cold as yr area. I think it needs a microclimate maybe with brushwood screens compost even straw and then either putting the fern in a pot and placing it in a hollow made of the litter to protect it. I suspect a bit of sun is fine , mine have a fair bit of hot sun and survive. I would either give them some sort of covering for winter or take the pots to a warmer area if that is possible.

    really good luck with this because it almost looks like the real thing


    http://www.yarram.org/Yarram-tour/Tarra-Bulga/index.html

    Liz
     

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