Help With Huge Plant

Discussion in 'Araceae' started by kraftylady89, Jun 12, 2008.

  1. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I must apologize and quite loudly!

    We had over 60 visitors to our atrium last Sunday as a result of a paid tour sponsored by a local garden club. I charge nothing! The tour was done as a fund raiser for the garden club.

    It appears someone changed the tags of two plants (possibly more) without my knowledge and despite the fact I asked repeatedly that no one touch the tags!

    The photo below is correctly Philodendron lacerum. I THINK the photo I first posted and have since changed is Philodendron 'Evansii' which is a natural hybrid found in Ecuador, Brazil and Peru. The plant in the photo link at the top of the page COULD BE Philodendron 'Evansii'. Due to this confusion I must do more research to confirm the confusion.

    Philodendron 'Evansii' is in fact a Meconostigma but is not a species. It is a combination of two natural plants that cross pollinated in the wild and one of those two is Philodendron bipinnatifidum. I have extensive notes on Philodendron 'Evansii' but at this time cannot be positive.

    I assure you, I was basing my previous explanations on a tag that had been changed without my knowledge or consent. Every time I allow visitors this seems to happen and I beg people not to touch the tags. But it happens every time I open the atrium to the public.

    I am taking all the photos including those of Philodendron 'Evansii' to Dr. Croat for a confirmation and will report the findings in just over one week.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  2. gypsytropicals

    gypsytropicals Active Member

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    Oh, I know how Steve feels!

    I am asked every year to allow our local Anthurium Club to come visit on the annual Safari, and the thought makes me quiver in fright every time!
    I'm OK with a couple of people that I can walk around with, but large groups are out of the question.

    Here's a tale Steve will be able will be able to relate to;

    I remember once my friends at their (now long gone) nursery 'The Plant Shop' allowed a club through (this was about 20 years ago when people smoked) and one member put his cigarette out in a styrofoam cup, and left it in the greenhouse on a bench, but the cigarette didn't go out. While the group migrated to another part of the property the cup ignited and caught the greenhouse on fire.
    Ah, what do they say, 'No good deed goes unpunished'.

    Take a deep breath Steve, it will be OK!
     
  3. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Windy. I know this happens, but it scares me silly.

    I try and try to research things accurately but really got caught in this one. Both of these plants have been in my collection for just months. I am just beginning to do the research and neither is on my website for lack of accurate or incomplete information.

    I've already received several posts from people I trust that are telling me the original plant in this thread is Philodendron 'Evansii' or one of the variable names used by others. Dr. Croat is actually the one who caught my error. He is absolutely fantastic at checking my facts and alerted me earlier today there was a problem. I immediately went to check the tags because I had consulted those very tags before writing my first post on this thread. Since the plants had been in the collection such a short period of time I simply did not have them memorized. I have something in excess of 300 plants in the collection (largely aroids) and the scientific names of each and every one are simply difficult to memorize. That is why I have the website. It is my "memory" and notes.

    One person I trust wrote to say they didn't understand what happened. So if I can, let me state it again. We had over 60 people who visited as guests of a local garden club just a few days ago but before I made the first post. I asked each one to not remove any tags but it strongly appears some "curious soul" just couldn't avoid the temptation. This afternoon Dr. Croat recommended I buy the aluminum tags with wires attached so they cannot be removed. I am ordering a box on Monday!

    Anyone who believes I am in error is welcome to call "my bluff". I make no claim to be an expert and never have. I just do my absolute best to be accurate. And in this case, I blew it BIG TIME!
     
  4. Briansbotanicals

    Briansbotanicals Member

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    The climbing split leaf Philodendron does indeed look to be Philodendron lacerum. Steve you may find Tom bring up the name philo radiatum on this as well. I am not sure if they are not considered the same or if they are separate very closely related looking species. The area were it was collected may clear that up. Most of these climbing split leaf forms can have very different juvenile leaves compared to mature leaves. In some cases I have found that they look like totally different plants making it difficult for most people and most experts to ID off hand.
     
  5. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Just a note on Philodendron 'Evansii' or Philodendron x Evansii which ever may prove to be more correct:

    The photo in the original post above is a baby. A juvenile. This plant is going to need a bigger pot, and that is a promise! I'm going to post a photo momentarily of a full grown growth stand in Florida. Compare it to the house! But first some notes from two experts, Julius Boos and Leland Miyano who exchanged multiple mail with Ron Weeks who is one of the founders of the International Aroid Society.

    I can tell you already there will be some dissension to what I am going to post. It just goes with the territory. In my case, I trust these individuals and plan to confirm all of this with Dr. Croat in just a few day. P. 'Evansii' is not a species plant. It is a natural hybrid and the parents are listed in these notes for your consideration:

    Written by Julius Boos and Leland Miyano in an exchange of mail,

    "Ron Weeks just kicked in a memory about Philodendron 'Evansii'...which may be the Philodendron in question. I am confused and I have my copy of Exotica in storage. However, Graf must be taken with a grain or more of salt. The plant in question is a hybrid of Philodendron speciosum with Philodendron bipinnatifidum. The hybrid name is for other experts to sort out. Ron does make the valid claim that hybrid swarms produce very similar plants. Now, the species variation within P. bipinnatifidum and P. speciosum is wide and that can produce different results with different parentage origins.

    The plants are typical of plants that are open pollinated by natural pollinators without controls within cultivated collections. When these seedlings gain wider distribution; confusion will reign. This plant is attractive and worthwhile. Try to look at Graf to give a clue...and we can try to untangle this identity somewhat. The one that is standing up in the picture is supported by a rope, and it curves before the point where it is tied. If it were straightened out, it would probably go up about 20 feet into the air."

    Now, I must repeat. I cannot verify if this is or is not Philodendron 'Evansii'. It does appear to be that plant but the Meconostigma base has yet to develop. But if it is, this plant will become enormous and will begin to produce pups. The plant in my collection was taken directly from this stand of plants! I've been attempting to research this for close to 6 months with still many unanswered questions. Hopefully Dr. Croat will provide some."

    One other note, I am aware that many people love Graf's Exotica and Tropica. Almost every botanist I know does not trust those texts. Both are filled with scientific error and many bad plant names. Mr. Graf did a wonderful thing by introducing the world to tropical plants, but he was a collector, not a botanist. He freely accepted many names people offered and never appeared to verify anything. The current publisher apparently makes no effort to update the books. Simply a warning, CHECK anything you read in those books. You may as well be reading a myth as the truth.


    Leland wrote:
    "Regarding the height: The stems or trunks are never strong enough to support a full growth of leaves. So they always fall over like the one that is sticking out, parallel to the ground, in the picture below. The one that is standing up in the picture is supported by a rope, and it curves before the point where it is tied. If it were straightened out, it would probably go up about 20 feet into the air."

    Be sure and note the Meconostigma bases on this big plant as I illustrated earlier. They have apparently yet to develop further indicating this is just a baby plant.

    This is a highly variable plant and juvenile blades will not look the same as adult blades. My juvenile plant which looks like the photo at the top of this page, was taken directly from the stand in this photograph
     

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  6. joclyn

    joclyn Rising Contributor

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    whoah!!! holy moly!! that is a HUGE plant!!!

    darned impressive!!!

    kraftylady...i said it before...and after seeing this pic, i'll say it again :) you need to repot your plant!!
     
  7. Briansbotanicals

    Briansbotanicals Member

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    I have also heard both that Philo evansii is both a species and a natural hybrid. I think that years ago sense it was growing in the wild it was thought to be a species. I am sure Julius and Leland are on their top game on this as they seem to be some of the best experts I know on this group. If they believe it is a hybrid their is little to argue as I am sure they have looked deep into the subject. The fact that it is a hybrid may give reason to the many different forms that are often seen of Evansii.

    The question in my mind still remains is how long must a natural hybrid be grown before it becomes a species?? As it seems most species are ancient hybrids. One that has often had my interest in this is Philo corsinianum. I believe Graff had it labeled as a hybrid and I have seen it refereed to as a species. It shows signs of it being a hybrid with a velvet leaf philo possibly Philo verricosum.
    In breeding plants I have found that after closely looking at species compared to my own hybrids in Alocasias and Colocasias that if closely inspected you can see some signs of a plant being a hybrid. Things like thicker leaves extra or more veins as well as mutations or uneven counts on a leaf. Are common signs. This also seems to be in the flowers with extra or missing sex organs and at times they will be sterile. Most likely due to the uneven number of chromosomes. This visual test is not always right but it gives people something to look for if it is a possible hybrid.
     
  8. gypsytropicals

    gypsytropicals Active Member

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    Hi Everyone,

    I wrote yesterday that I was frightened by large groups visiting me, but I do love to have aroid fanatics visit.

    At this time I would like to extend a welcome to anyone coming to Oahu (the Honolulu island) to come here for a visit. I am around most of the time, although I do travel a little.

    I can also point you to some good hikes and fun plant related day outings, as well as other places and activities off the beaten path of tourism.

    Many feel Hawaii is expensive, but that is only true if you hang out in Waikiki.
    Oahu has a lot to offer and inexpensive fun can be accessed by just knowing where to go.

    Windy Aubrey
    exotics@hawaii.rr.com
     
  9. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I just checked both TROPICOS and the Royal Botanic Garden Kew in London (International Plant Names Index) or IPNI. Philodendron evansii is listed on neither.
     
  10. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I wasn't on here all weekend. Boy what a thread!!
    So are we going with a hybrid between P speciosum and P bipinnatifidum???

    Ed
     
  11. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    I want one already. Are you willing to give it a shot, Ed?
     
  12. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    A shot at making this hybrid do you mean Beth?

    Ed
     
  13. trikus

    trikus Active Member

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    Many different self-heading hybrids will be made shortly by a mate who has done some great hybrids before ..this clump is 1.5m tall but very wide ...
     

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  14. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    That's exactly what I mean, Ed. I haven't got the two base species, but I bet you do!
     
  15. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Nice pics Mick!!
    And Beth, I only have one : (

    Ed
     
  16. trikus

    trikus Active Member

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    This is a beauty , but I prefer the large entire leaf ones .
     

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  17. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    That is a different one Mick...I like it

    Ed
     
  18. Briansbotanicals

    Briansbotanicals Member

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    Very different were is this one from? It looks similar to some I grew from seed out of brazil under a few different names. Most were not what they said they were but non were very common looking as well. I am not sure if any had that thin of segments some looked close. You have a name or source for this one?
     
  19. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    It's a hybrid created by the Disney folks, from P. bipinnatifidum and P. speciosum.
     
  20. kraftylady89

    kraftylady89 Member

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    Ok if this is a Philodendron x Evansii and it is going to get larger I have no space for a plant this big? The post is a good size and there is alot of area in the soil. I amnot sure what I will do with this if it get bigger as I am having problems now with the size! I did wrap a loose piece of gauze around the stems to keep it contained..Will wait the expert advise. millie
     
  21. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    If that is indeed Philodendron x 'evansii' (I don't see the pics now, and assuming it's a juvenile, then it would be hard to tell anyways), then it will get larger, much larger....

    http://www.blueboard.com/pahatan/gambar/p_x_evansii_1.htm

    Here's the distinctive stem of plants in the meconostigma division:

    http://www.blueboard.com/pahatan/gambar/p_x_evansii_img6.htm
     
  22. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    Krafty - you can somewhat limit the size of the plant by keeping it a bit rootbound or by vegetatively propagating (ie cutting and re-rooting) it. If you just let it go, then yes in time it will take over your house. But you can manage it.
     
  23. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    Great looking plant there...a meconostigma hybrid? P. stenolobum and some undulate leaved species?
     
  24. asj2008

    asj2008 Active Member

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    That looks like one of Brian William's seed grown plants from Siedel in Brazil...I have one similar to it...
     
  25. trikus

    trikus Active Member

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    Its a local plant , a mate has done many hybrids and this one could be a selection he kept .. may have been done before Brian was even born ;-)
     

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