In search of info on a RARE Anthurium, possibly Anthurium angamarcanum

Discussion in 'Plants: Identification' started by photopro, Jul 5, 2007.

  1. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    Several of us are attempting to research an unusual Anthurium sp. That aroid appeared on the cover of the 1989 issue of Aroideana, Volume 12, 1-4. (see attached) Aroideana is a publication of the International Aroid Society. It is a most unusual Anthurium sp. That photo was taken by renowned collector Dorothy Henkle (now deceased). Little has been written (that I can find) regarding this plant other than this quote on the inside of the issue: "Anthurium species (section Cardiolonchium) collected by Dorothy Henkle 1981 in central Colombia at 6,000 feet. Leaf is six feet one inch long and almost dwarfs Jack Henkle. Grown by Dorothy Henkle. Photo by Dorothy Henkle." Little else is known about the Henkle specimen and no one appears to know what happened to the rare plant, which may be a species unknown to science, after Dorothy's death.

    As a member of section Cardiolonchium, the surface of the plant would be velvety in appearance. Noted members of that section include Anthurium crystallinum Linden & André, Anthurium magnificum Linden, Anthruium regale Linden and Anthurium warocqueanum J. Moore. It is somewhat similar to specimens of Anthurium angamarcanum Sodiro and Anthurium marmoratum Sodiro. Aroid botanist Dr. Tom Croat of the Missouri Botanical Garden has indicated to those of us researching this plant those species are likely one and the same. However, one noted collector has found an odd species in northern Ecuador which strongly resembles the Henkle plant. He is currently calling it Anthurium marmoratum but appears to believe it is a new species. No one is certain if it is the same, or simply resembles her plant.

    Dorothy moved to Hawaii and collectors there have acquired many of her specimens following her death. I'm in hopes someone there still has this specimen and can help us with additional photos.

    If you ever saw this specimen in person and have photos, we'd love to hear from you!

    If you were privileged to have seen this plant when Dorothy was alive and have photos or information you are willing to share, I'd love to hear from you. If you have any information at all about this specimen, I'd love to hear from you. If you know where the plant now resides, I'd really love to hear from you!

    We're especially interested in photos showing the vein structure, photos of the cataphylls (the plant structure surrounding the formation of a new leaf) spathe and spadix the plant may have produced, and any measurements you may have taken.

    Obviously, this one grows much larger than similar species. And don't worry, I'm not going to try to buy your plant if you have Dorothy's specimen! I won't even tell where it resides if you don't want that information made public. I just want to learn more about the species. We have some theories regarding the specimen but need more information to pursue learning if they are even remotely possible.

    Thanks!
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 5, 2007
  2. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    We've been able to uncover quite a bit more information on what may be this unusual specimen. At present it is being called Anthurium mamoratum, but that is unlikely to be the specimen's final scientific name if it proves to be a new species. Dr. Tom Croat of the Missouri Botanical Garden is currently researching the species and is going to Ecuador in the next few weeks partially in an effort to locate more specimens and hopefully a type specimen for scientific identification.

    If you are interested in exotic aroids and Anthurium sp. you might enjoy reading what we've uncovered so far.

    http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Anthurium marmoratum pc.html
     
  3. otnorot

    otnorot Member

    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Toronto Ontario Canada
    Thank you photopro I enjoyed the read and the excellent photos of all subjects.
    Bill
     
  4. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    Dr. Croat sent a most interesting email yesterday. He believes he has now tracked down the source of this mysterious Anthurium species.

    He has learned that some of the information previously known was incorrect and the plant was actually collected by two individuals who preferred not to be named. Those individuals gave the plant to Mrs. Henkle. It was actually collected over 2000 feet higher in the Andes Mountains of Colombia than previously known. He now believes there is a good chance he can locate the specimen in the wild. I have added his email to the bottom of the page.

    If you enjoy learning about truly rare Anthurium species, this one may be worth the read.
     
  5. otnorot

    otnorot Member

    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Toronto Ontario Canada
    Thanks Photopro for keeping me up to date.
    Bill
     
  6. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    4,776
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    le BUMP. I might have found one!

    This is growing in relative anonymity in (of all places) the Quito Botanical Garden temperate orchidarium.

    The plant matches the descriptions of A. angamarcanum, and the longest leaf on this specimen was about 6'5". It was in bloom, so I have spathe/spadix as well.

    QBC is a very friendly organisation, and informs me that I can have a bit of rhizome from it if I ask very nicely; I'm waiting until I have my very own garden to do this.

    How cool if this is the one you're looking for, PhotoPro.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    Certainly does appear you located Anthurium angamarcanum. This doesn't appear to be the odd form that Dr. Croat has been trying to find up in the mountains of Columbia, but is a beautiful specimen. Can I have your permission to grab your photos and post them on the page on my website? If so, please send me an email with your OK and the name I should attach as a photo credit. You can find my email address by clicking on the link beneath my name, just scroll to near the bottom of the homepage and you'll find the email address. Please also give me as much detail as possible to add to the page. Thanks!
     
  8. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    4,776
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Hey, absolutely you can have the photos. Check your email.

    This specimen was growing at 2,829 meters above sea level, in an orchidarium with temperatures around 22 degrees C, and humidity around 80%. The longest leaf measured 6'5" and the shortest 6'1". Spathe and spadix were hiding out under the plant, and measured about 12"

    The leaf texture is smooth, velvety, and a bit waxy, and leaves are deeply plicate around their veins. Young leaves share the same characteristics as older ones, but are a paler green in colour and tend to be waxier than velvety. Staff at the garden had no idea how old the specimen is.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2008
  9. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    Thanks!
     
  10. gypsytropicals

    gypsytropicals Active Member

    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Oahu, Hawaii, USA
    Hi Steve,

    Ok, I'm a little confused.

    I think you might be looking for what is being called Anthurium marmoratum, not A. angamarcanum.

    I have juvenile forms of both and to me the Marmoratum is the closest to Dorothy Henkle's plant.
    Here's why I think so, althought both species are similar in appearance, their growing characteristics are totally different. Angamarcanum has a leggy stem(trunk) with long internodes. When it grows it seems to need some support to keep it from keeling over.
    The blade on the Angamarcanum is different too when you really give it a good look.

    The Marmoratum blade is a different texture, more like a Warocqueanum. The other thing that gives it away to me is Marmoratum has a stout trunk with short internodes.

    If Dorothy's plant had been a Angamarcanum it would have been extremely tall, with a long climbing trunk. To me, the plant on the IAS cover has a different type trunk.

    Last year I visited Dr Ron's collection and he had a Marmoratum that he had recently repotted into a large plastic rubbish can, perforated for drainage, ala Darian style. This plant had rewarded him with a beautiful 4' blade, drop-jaw knock out! This plant is the closest thing I have seen to the plant Dorothy grew (IAS cover 1989).

    I think the handsome plant Lorax shows is another species. It looks like maybe it could be A. dolichostachyum, but that's just a quess on my part.

    I will add some pictures as an example of the blade and stem differences on the two plants you were asking about.

    Windy
     
  11. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    You are correct. Sort of. I posted this thread with the name Anthurium angamarcanum before some of the information now known came to light. I clarify that in my second post at the top of this thread.

    If you click on the link to my site you will see the name at the top is Anthurium marmoratum. But according to Dr. Croat the actual species name is Anthrium angamarcanum until he can find an actual species and do the work up. I only post what I can learn from him to be scientifically acceptable and as of this date all Anthurium marmoratum have been melded into Anthurium angamarcanum. In the article on the link below you'll see I explain about Dr. Kaufmann's and Dr. Croat's decision to call this one Anthurium marmoratum until further study can be done. But according to Tom that is now only a working name.

    http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Anthurium marmoratum pc.html

    I have one of the plants taken from Dr. Kaufmann's large plant and have already told Tom that if he can't find it in Colombia I'll give him my plant for his studies. He has finally been given the correct information on where Dorothy's plant was collected and is hoping to revisit the location. In fact, he was hoping to do so during his August/September trip to Ecuador. Time just didn't allow him to go. No one is certain but it is likely Dorothy put out inaccurate collection data in an attempt to keep anyone from finding another. The actual location where her plant was found was substantially higher in the Andes than she reported and quite a few kilometers away from her reported collection spot. In fact, she didn't actually collect it. The individual who did find the plant finally contacted Tom last summer and gave him all the true data. He just doesn't wish to be involved and it appears a large number of people have known the truth ever since that photo was published on Aroideana. I have his name but have been asked not to post it anywhere public.

    Take a few minutes and read the entire page. I think the mixup will be a bit clearer.
     
  12. gypsytropicals

    gypsytropicals Active Member

    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Oahu, Hawaii, USA
    Steve,

    Here are the pictures to show the differences I was talking about.

    Image #7341 shows a young Marmoratum beside a Angamarcanum.

    The other images are close-ups of the two species' blade and trunk.

    What do you think?


    Windy
     

    Attached Files:

  13. gypsytropicals

    gypsytropicals Active Member

    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Oahu, Hawaii, USA
    Yes, I know that there has been some work being done on this group.

    That's great news. I have several different Anthuriums with the 'Marmoratum' name tag. I know that this name isn't offical, but that name is how many refer to it. Some are also tagged Marmaratum type or Marmaratum #1, 2, 3, etc.
    The plants I have were all kind of similar when they were small, but now, some that we picked up in 2003 and 2004 are really turning out different. I always try to mark my tags as to when and where I obtained the plant for future information.
    I am finally getting spathes on several of these plants in question, so I hope this will help to ID them once Dr. Tom finished with his work.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    And you are a very smart lady for tagging everything that way! Tom (Croat) has gotten to where he doesn't even like to venture a guess on a plant name unless you can tell him exactly where the plant originated in nature. You started a long time before I did and I was really bad to catch on to the importance of making notes on where my plants originated. But I do it now! That is one of the reasons I started my little website which is turning into an unwieldy monster! The site is little more than my own notes to myself but I write the pages so anyonce can hopefully make sense out of them and use the information. I go back all the time and add notes as I learn more so I can find it and recall it later! I added new notes to 5 pages just today with information forwarded to me from collectors who live and work in the field. Old age is setting in and if I don't write it down I won't remember it accurately in short order.

    Your observations on the plants in your collection are right on. Personally, I would rather have different species names for plants that appear dramatically different. But the science of botany has a different view. If it produces the same spathe (or very close), it is the same species scientifically. You'll recall the little adventure we both went through with your collection of what turned out to be another form of Philodendron hederaceum. Your work on photographing the spathe and spadices will be valuable to a lot more people than just yourself. Especially the one you have that appears to be the same as the large Anthurium Dorothy photographed for the cover of Aroideana. Tom seems to think that one, especially the one Dr. Ron Kaufmann has, may be an entirely new species. But the spathe and spadix may be the clue that tells the tale, and so far, I don't think anyone has a photograph of the inflorescence.

    If you get one, I'd love to see it and I know for certain Dr. Croat would like to see it. By any chance, do you have exact collection data on your specimen that looks like Dorothy's? I think Ron has data on his and that is part of the reason he and Tom are working with the plant. Tom has told me several times he'd like to find it again in Colombia. Apparently he looked for it once but he was looking in the vicinity where Dorothy published "she" had collected it. Since it now turns out she wasn't actually the collector and the plant came from a much higher elevation, a new search will have to be mounted. I'd love to go be a part of the search but wheel chairs and rain forest just don't seem to want to work together.

    Thanks for your input, especially all the variation photos. My guess would be Dr. Croat would say you have a bunch of variations of Anthurium angamarcanum, but good data along with photos of the spathe and spadices as well as good measurements will eventually tell the tale.

    Just curious. What kind of light are you growing the one that is growing narrow under? And by the way, your collection of this group is outstanding!!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2008
  15. gypsytropicals

    gypsytropicals Active Member

    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Oahu, Hawaii, USA
    Sorry, I don't get to do the collecting.
    I do some importing, but am at the mercy of the supplier. Unfortunately the collection data isn't usually available to me. Sometimes the field collector either doesn't want the location shared in order to protect the site or has had someone else collect for them in different areas of the country.
    I try to find out the exact country and sometimes even this information is difficult to obtain, and always try to find out if the plants are from high or low elevation. I add this info to the tag with the collectors name and the date I obtained the plant.
    I know how important it is to have the field collection data for better identification, and without it I wait for published descriptions and names. Looking forward to the day Dr. Tom completes another section of Anthuriums from Ecuador.

    Re: the light in our greenhouse, I try to have different areas set up to receive more and less light. I add extra shade to some parts of the greenhouse by placing an extra layer of shade cloth or build small bamboo lath screens, that I place overhead, where extra shade is needed. I usually remove these added shade providers in the Winter when our sun is low.
    I have found that the 'velvet types' grow much better if in a darker shade location. I try to duplicate how the understory would be. If they get too much light the color of the blade bleachs a bit, and I prefer the dark green color.
    Also anything with a bulate(waffled) blade also does better in a shadier spot.
    If the Anthurium has a glossy or hard blade I give them higher, brighter light, but never direct sun.
    Two years ago I gather up our Veitchii and placed it in a brighter location. The plant really responded with larger heavier growth and good seed production.
    From this discovery I've tried other 'type' species and have had excellent results.

    If I am fortunate to get more than one plant of a cetain species, I will place the extra plant in a different spot in the greenhouse and if one does better than the other I will move the other to that spot. Within a space there are always micro-climates, depending what is around the area. Sometimes moving something only a few feet to a different spot will make a big difference in the plants vigor.

    Wishing everyone an early Spring!
    Windy
     
  16. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    Thanks for your growing information.

    Dr. Croat is currently working of his journal, Flora of Ecuador. He told me a few weeks ago it is now approximately 60% to 70% complete (more or less). He has collected many species in his frequent collection trips to Ecuador and was not certain when the journal would be complete. He brought back 25 new and undescribed species just on his last trip.

    This is his exact quote in regard to the volume: Well, I would like to believe that I can finish the Araceae for the Flora of Ecuador but it is a fomidable project with over 1000 species, perhaps 300-400 yet to be described and though we have described lots we have just scratche the surface. Compounding the problem is that a large percentage of the aroid flora remaind undetermined."

    I'm sure you have far more species than do I, but he has given me some fairly good information on a few including his unpublished papers for some. I'm sure you grow Philodendron maximum so you may wish to read that page which can be located on my Plants Collection page. I've got some of the information for Philodendron rubrocinctum but he beleives the plant I received from Ecuagenera is a new species and not P. rubrocinctum. The effort is slow going but take a look at the plants I've written up so far and you may find more information than is published on just a few.

    Again, thanks for the information. I'll put it to use.
     
  17. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
  18. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    4,776
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Very cool, very cool! Thanks, Steve.
     
  19. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    Thanks for allowing me to use it!
     

Share This Page