cherry trees need nitrogen .

Discussion in 'Fruit and Nut Trees' started by smokinsiggy, Oct 2, 2006.

  1. smokinsiggy

    smokinsiggy Member

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    have @120 , I' m told "lapin cherry" trees in my landlords yard . trees are 5-6 yrs old . last summers yeild was the first real productive yr. these poor lil buggers produced some of the best cherries tasted . anyhow , they were raised pretty rough for 2 yrs. any past sprays or feeding were and would like to keep organic. did a soil test in problem areas during bloom and the soil came back as lacking nitrogen as suspected due to the large weed overgrowth . (P , K AND PH CAME BACK GOOD).we cleaned back the weeds last yr. and spread some cedar and fir chips/sawdust around the surfaces and it heped temporarily . can someone advise on proper fertilizer compost or manure for the very near future , like next week to 10 days , we intend on working the weed patches over again and what is the best deteriant from the darn weeds under these babys ? fairly new to orchard gardens but have a green thumb from the praires .
     
  2. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Did a lab do the analysis or did you use a home style kit? If you got a report from a lab it might include a comment that points toward what you need to get, maybe even something like "apply _lbs (or metric unit) N per acre (or hectare, I suppose)" etc.

    Before anyone rushes in with "fertilizing now will force growth!" fall is the best time to fertilize hardy plants, including with N, for multiple reasons.
     
  3. smokinsiggy

    smokinsiggy Member

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    thanks for the reply Ron . did the home kit test . yes this is probably nowhere as effective an actual lab annylisize. perhaps I will try contact UBC site at Aggazi . it will save the drive into Vancouver. this method is of course proffesional and will perhaps save me the math on how much to apply . was under the impression that one could open the weed bed on top each tree surface , then apply dry compost or manure. ???
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2006
  4. jimmyq

    jimmyq Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    there is also a soil analysis lab in langley. Norwest Labs.
     
  5. oscar

    oscar Active Member

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    ok, name the reasons why you'd fertilize in fall as opposed to spring?
     
  6. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    As with planting (see summary below), fall is the best time to fertilize hardy plants because "In the spring the air is getting warmer with the longer days but the soils are cold, generally wet and poorly aerated. With the spring flush of growth, root activity proceeds slowly since the bulk of the energy from the leaves goes to the new top growth. On the other hand, in the fall the soils are warm while the air is getting cooler and the length of the days, shorter. The soils are generally better aerated and when combined with the greater energy levels in the stems and roots, root absorption of nutrients proceeds rapidly"

    "Day Length

    Spring: increasing
    Fall: decreasing

    Air temperature

    Spring: warm - increasing
    Fall: decreasing

    Soil temperature

    Spring: cool/cold
    Fall: warm

    Soil moisture

    Spring: good to excessive
    Fall: fair - good

    Soil oxygen level

    Spring: low to moderate
    Fall: moderate to good

    Leaf water loss

    Spring: new leaves - high
    Fall: old leaves - low

    Stored energy level in the plant

    Spring: low, after spring flush
    Fall: very high"

    -- Establishment and Maintenance of Landscape Plants (Carl E. Whitcomb)
     
  7. oscar

    oscar Active Member

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    Thanks Ron

    Is there any experimental data to go with that (what im looking for is leaching).......did they have for example 2 identical plants one fed in spring and 1 in autumn and measure the loss of nitrates and nitrites through leaching....what im asking is how do they know the autumn fed plant ate more than say a spring fed plant?
     
  8. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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  9. oscar

    oscar Active Member

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    Its my understanding, the plant processes the raw materials, minerals, Hydrogen and oxygen (water) carbon and oxygen (CO2) and oxygen, using sunlight energy it processes all these raw materials into sugars, the sugars are then combined with nitrogen, potassium, phosporus and other elements absorbed as solutions of chemicals from the soil, forming proteins, complex carbohydrates, fats, oils, vitamins and hormones.....all this happens in the leaves (incredible how plants do this) anyway, if all this activity happens using the sun, why then would a fall application be more benificial than a late spring early summer application? maybe i'm getting confused with (fall) i assume it means autumn (when the leaves are dropping, falling?) if the leaves are indeed falling off, there would be no or minimal activity in the leaves, ergo no processing of the minerals.
    UBC BG scientists maybe add something here???
     
  10. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Root growth in fall supported by energy built up all summer in stems. In spring the plant is like a bear that has just emerged from hibernation. What stored energy there is left goes primarily to top growth at that time. Being less active, in a soil that is cold and soggy the roots aren't as effective at picking up nutrients as in fall.

    Spring is next best time, after fall to fertilize.
     
  11. smokinsiggy

    smokinsiggy Member

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    have to agree with you Ron B . fall is probally best for the fertilzer to take propper action over long term . the tree is less stressed from other stages of growth . as we all know the leaching is evident and loss of actual nutrients values are deminished . now with that said , still stuck with an application formula to figure . can't see being capable of spending money with the pro's this year. rough year too much heat not enough water caused other fruit trees in the yard some costly remedies.
     
  12. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    "In most landscape situations there is no advantage to plant growth and health as a result of adding more than one pound of soluble nitrogen per 1000 square feet per application (43 pounds per acre). If part of the nitrogen is slow-release or where the soil is cool and urea, 46-0-0 is used a maximum of two pounds of nitrogen per 1000 square feet may be applied at one time. In areas of heavy rainfall and/or sandy soils, these rates of application may be repeated every two to four months if desired.

    Fertilizer may not improve plant growth and health if some other factor is limiting. For example, if the soil is compacted and root function is poor, little fertilizer will be absorbed. Plant growth and health is the result of the synchronization of all the factors. Fertilizer is only one factor in the complex of plant requirements.

    Summary.
    A. Fertilize on the soil surface only.
    B. If only one application is made per year, make it in the fall.
    C. Spread the fertilizer over the entire lawn or landscape area to make sure all tree roots are contacted.
    D. Do not apply more than one pound of soluble nitrogen per 1000 square feet per application, but make as many applications as necessary to acheive the desired result"

    --Whitcomb (1991)
     
  13. oscar

    oscar Active Member

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    Ok, so the root growth is supported by energy from all the summer feeding, root system expands (have seen this after potting bare root trees, doesn't take long to root into the pot).........so now my question is, do the roots start to take up minerals, before the leaves emerge (if so does the plant hold the minerals in the roots until it can be processed when the leaves appear and photosynthesis can start? another question with the expanding root system in fall, how do you know the roots are actively seeking nutrients and not just building a larger system ready for the following spring?, when the greatest amount of food becomes available (as in the soil organisms start to break down organic matter, releasing nitrogen naturally into the soil) i'd like to quote from Dr Cooks book of soil here, An application of fertilizer in spring is most benificial to a crop, as the plants are activly seeking minerals before temperatures allow the soil organisms to work.
    Another point i'd like to make is does the soil texture not play a significant role in when to apply a fertilizer? for example a soil with a greater % of aluminium silcate particles in an area with lower rainfall be best served with a fall application, compared to a much more free draining sandy soil in an area of higher rainfall, be best with a spring application?
    My last question would be about the cold soggy soil, how does temperature and moisture content affect the plants ability to draw up water?
     
  14. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Maybe check to see if Whitcomb's book(s) in library near you or maybe can order from him directly, if that interested. I think you can find discussion of at least some of specific points you are wondering about by reading his complete accounts. Also, the one I have excerpted here is not the current, revised additon of that particular title.

    He is a trailblazer, so you will find that his findings often do not conform to still prevalent dogma. Looking at his complete discussions you will also find he provides plenty of evidence.
     
  15. Dark Ant

    Dark Ant Member

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    This is really interesting Ron. I'm a horticultural student and I've been trying to work out the science behind these two theories - when is it best to fertilize: autumn or spring?

    I know the received wisdom is fertilize in autumn, and you hear plenty of anecdotal evidence from enthusiastic gardeners, but so far I've been unable to find any real science to back this up, where someone has actually tested the two theories or can at least explain the science behind why it's better adding fertilizer in the autumn rather than spring.

    I don't suppose you could tell me briefly what Whitcomb's evidence is? Has he based his theory on anything genuinely scientific? Or even a test of the two? I'm v keen to find out. (And also embarrassed to admit this but being a student I can't actually afford to get his book myself.)

    Thank you v v much for any help you could give me.
     
  16. oscar

    oscar Active Member

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    Just to follow up on the fertilizing.....I now have detailed fertilizer information from The Scotts Company and their latest Osmocote Exact controlled release fertilizer...tested across Europe....im sure all the technical data could be sent to anyone wishing to see the results of their trials, by contacting them directly.

    The Trials were for, Evergreens, Conifers and deciduous shrubs.
    all vary in thier growth habits;
    Conifers (example plant Juniperus stricta) 20-85% of growth between June and August, with 100% reached in mid September, needing a slower, later release fertilizer.

    Deciduous Shrub (example plant Hypericum) 20-95% of growth between June and August, with 100% reached in late August. needing more nutrients early and less later to match the needs of deciduous shrubs.

    Evergreen shrub (example plant Viburnum tinus) 20-100% was from April-September.

    The trials were on container grown stock, but it does show when the plants need the feed for optimum growth.
    Quote "Trial Results, Osmocote exact has been tested in 62 seperate trials in 11 countries throughout Europe, involving 60,000 plants".

    I found a site promoting winter feeding (they were selling some fertilizer) it was endorsed by some Dr, somewhere in a university in the USA, so i mailed him asking the same questions how does a plant process the minerals in winter, no reply (maybe the mail never reached him) Oo
    my best guess at why some say winter feeding is better is because spring is just around the corner and as soon as the plants start to grow again (whats left of the applied fertilizer) is there ready.
     
  17. greenthumbs14

    greenthumbs14 Member

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    hmm , i dont know if this would help but i've tryed used coffee grinds for some plants maybe you can try sprinkling about 2 cups around the tree or more if you need it , coffee has lots of nitrogen in it , and its worked well for my plants , i dont know if it will work for a tree though but i dont think it could harm it , anyways good luck with your tree .
     
  18. smokinsiggy

    smokinsiggy Member

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    Thanks for the tip greenthumb............ , believe that compost probably runs close to the same cost after trucking it in these days . Wish we kept them grounds now through out the winter. LOL
     

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