acer seed fungicide

Discussion in 'Maples' started by katsura, Sep 25, 2007.

  1. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    I am about to begin my annual seed planting and have
    not used a fungicide the past 2 years to treat seeds as
    I plant them straight off the trees into a peat seed starting
    mix. What fungicide have others found useful if at all, and is
    treating the samaras with a fungicide necessary at all. Does
    it enhance germination rates and/or seedling health? Would
    welcome any thoughts and advice.
    Many thanks.
     
  2. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Have used Wilson "Seed Treat" fungicide dust, contains 4% Thiram { highly toxic} and had good germination in peat bags in the fridge. Don't really know if it is necessary. Using half peat and half sand in a container left outside does seem the simplest here, kept moist.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2007
  3. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    I am trying to germinate some seed for the first time. I didn't use any fungicide in my mix. Since i soaked my seeds as soon as i picked them i went with the 2x stratification technique that is mentioned in Vertrees 2nd edition. 60 days moist & room temp, 90 days in 35-40F.
    I might harvest a few more and try another batch with fungicide. I read about someone using a bit of bleach in the moistening water. Does anyone have success without adding something for fungus?

    Katsura, how did it work out the past years? Which seeds were you using?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2007
  4. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    I love the generativity of acer germination. In my 1st year 2006 I got 25% germination;
    60 out of 82 cultivars germinated. In 2007 I got 35% germination;I have not calculated
    how many of the 102 cultivars came up. These 25% & 35% germ rates were higher
    than these numbers for the trays I cold stratified in the fridge. Cold stratification vastly increases germination rates here in the Bay Area vs trays left outdoors. In neither year did I treat the seeds/samaras generally with a fungicide altho in 2007 I did
    treat a few seeds in 10% Clorox overnight soak to test the method out & the seeds
    sprouted fine. I pick my seeds fresh off my trees and plant immediately (2 seeds/cell)
    in 1 inch square 72 cells per tray flats in EB Wilson Seed Starter peat mix. Seldom do
    I soak overnight because I plant lots of seeds and that it too time consuming. I try to
    keep meticulous records. Of course I only know the matrilineal genetics line since I
    do not hand pollinize. This year because I have so many trees with samaras that I have never seen produce before, I am planting 20 trays (2 seeds/72 cells each). In
    2007 because of the time involved de-winging, I planted many whole samaras which
    made me wonder if I should fungicide this year because the wing surface is so large
    a vector in collecting viruses/bacteria etc. I found generally no difference in germination with or without wings left on the seeds. I wish I had more refridgerator
    room than 12 trays because 2-3 of the 5 trays not refridgerated in 2007 had no
    germination which means in the 12 trays refridgerated the 35% germ rate was close
    to 50%. As u can tell I love germinating maples, but I am lucklily retired and have the
    time to do it becuz repotting from trays to 4 in pots and keeping many hundreds
    watered March thru Oct (no rain in Bay area those months) requires constant
    vigilance but it is a passion.
     
  5. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Katsura thank you for those details. I am working with only 3 types of seeds. 2 shirasawanums and J.p. Hogyoku. I left the wings on all of them. Are your plants in the ground? And do you have any interesting seedlings that you might post photos of?

    Lastly, why do you think you have more trees producing samara this year?
     
  6. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    PTB, I posted a thread on this forum earlier this year about the abundance of
    samaras this year, and seemingly all of the replies from around the world mentioned
    the same thing. i don't know why; I thought it was because we had a very rainy
    winter in 2006 (altho a dry winter 2007) in N. Cal. Many tell me becuz the trees are
    signalling a cold and/or dry winter this winter but I rather doubt that wives' tale. Yes,
    I have some interesting seedlings but they are only 1-2 years old and it takes several
    years to see if traits are novel and/or stable. I shud photo and post but I don't know
    how to. Wud love comment about the plethora of samaras this year. I've looked in
    the literature for an answer without success.
     
  7. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Well the samara bonanza has not struck on my deck. Last spring i gave all my larger plants an intensive root pruning, which probably inhibited samara production.

    I found this comment in relation to Acer rubrum samara production: "Phenological observations indicate that the occurrence of spring frosts at the time of flower bud flushing could contribute to decreasing the abundance of seeds."---M. Francine Tremblay, Yves Bergeron, Danielle Lalonde, Yves Mauffette (2002)

    But it doesn't look like you get much frost in Novato.
    Looking forward to when you post some seedling pictures.
    I am very curious to grow a few seedlings from A.s Red dawn and Palmatifolium.
     
  8. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    PTB, I found as Red Dawn very easy to germinate, and I hope u do too. To answer
    an earlier question, most of my plants are in containers. We do get some frosts in
    Novato. After your question about what is causing heavy samara production, I looked
    through Hartmann & Kester's PLANT PROPAGATION 7th ed. which is a remarkable text
    book on propagating and also looked at D.M. van Gelderen's MAPLES of the WORLD
    without finding any explanations. I will keep trying to find an answer.
     
  9. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    In areas that would sow seed outdoors in flats
    in a sand, perlite, vermiculite mixed medium
    then Captan, wettable powder form, was lightly
    sprinkled onto the seeds to ward off any fungal
    invaders. Benlate or Sulfur dust can be used as
    well. I do not like using liquid forms to soak
    the seed but some people will macerate the
    seed in solution prior to placing them in
    Sphagnum Moss and then refrigerate to
    enhance earlier germination of the seed.

    Personally I have no problems with sowing
    seed with the samaras left on. The samaras
    are the more likely to serve as the host for
    fungal diseases however as in some years
    the beginnings of Botrytis can be seen as
    a speckling on the backsides of the samaras
    that are shaded from direct light in cool and
    moist areas in the early Fall here where I am.
    By Winter the seeds can turn an allover brown
    color to brownish black color in cooler areas
    because of it. I've seen seed coats and samaras
    completely black in Oregon before prior to the
    onset of Winter.

    The fungus does not inhibit the viable seed
    from germinating but can affect the seed after
    it does germinate if we are not careful about
    using a reasonable sanitary medium for the
    seeds to grow in. Botrytis by itself does not
    kill but put it in contact with another fungus,
    such as a soil borne or a soil inhabiting
    organism, can be real trouble later for
    seedlings.

    An added note: where I am we have some
    Narcissus and some Spring bulbs starting
    to break ground but this is normal for this
    time of year for them. A few plants here
    say early Fall as well but then again for us
    that means an Indian Summer of which
    we've been in one here since mid August
    when we started seeing morning dew on
    the ground. The Maples have not set their
    last flush of new growth yet as they are in
    a flush right now as seen with most of the
    palmatums here, aside from a few of the
    Tridents, which means that they feel the
    onset of cold is not all that forthcoming
    for them. All of the japonicums here
    have new leaves on them at the moment.

    Jim
     
  10. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Jim, thanks for those notes and observations. I will be sure to maintain sanitary conditions if i get seedlings. I stratified the seeds in moistened fresh cactus soil. I did not try outdoors because we get close to zero F. here some winters. Also indian summer here. My palmatums still making a little push--slight concern!

    Katsura, thanks for the vote of confidence with Red dawn. I love the shirasawanums and would be thrilled to have a batch of seedlings next spring.
     
  11. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    Jim, thanks for your insights. Any thoughts about this year's seemingly heavy samara
    production?. Interestingly, I have many maples this year producing seeds that I have
    never had seed before and I have some trees that seem never to seed despite their
    age & size seeming mature enough to do so. I see little in the general literature about
    the mechanics of maple flowering & seed production. Any thoughts please?
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    I am not seeing a lot more seed production
    this year than in the past two or three years.
    The only tree that has much more seed than
    usual for us is my Oshu beni. I saw a lot of
    seed in the Spring that was shucked by the
    plants pretty fast here. Only the Tridents
    now are starting to have some seed fall to
    the ground but most of the palmatum seed
    is long gone, except for the Oshu beni.

    What causes some of the Maples to set
    a lot of seed can depend on the age of
    the trees, climate and how much they
    have stressed and in some years getting
    some cold chill that they did not get in
    previous years.

    Some cultivars produce much more seed
    than others once they get up to a certain
    age and some types of Maples such as
    Nomura and Shojo group reds can set
    more seed in some years and hold them
    longer on the tree than some of the more
    common Atropurpueum group and the
    closely related Nigrum group plants do.

    One thing that may or may not be true
    or consistent in other areas is that for
    us here if the seed stays longer on the
    trees, our viability rate for the seed is
    greater, which should translate into a
    higher percentage of seed germination.
    May not hold true for all areas but for
    us it seems to be for the palmate types,
    japonicums and buergerianums. I've
    had better luck with fresh seed from
    Silver and Sugar Maples however but
    that may just be for me here and not
    true or common elsewhere.

    If your Maples set seed across the board
    at a higher rate than usual and your trees
    are all about 12-20 years old then you
    may have had some cold that contributed
    to the seed set. For some trees the freeze
    we had in January really helped some of
    them seem to bloom better than in previous
    years. A stressed Almond can bloom
    profusely in the Spring as well, so can
    a stressed Apricot and Plum here so
    cold chill alone is not it for them. If
    there is a moral in all of this I saw my
    17 year old seedling Apricot bloom for
    the first time this year!

    I will say this though that in some of
    our palmate form plants that I saw more
    flowers in the late Summer new growth
    than I have seen in some time. I am not
    sure what that means yet. We have some
    flower clusters on the two Filifera purpurea
    right now and the three Tsuma gakis are
    starting to show a hint of some intermediate
    flower clusters also with all of them in
    fifteen gallon containers. I thought my
    Kinran that had some mid Summer flower
    clusters that were quickly shucked in a
    matter of a couple of days in a 36" box
    was just an enigma but now we have other
    trees at the misses location that are showing
    late flower clusters also but the clusters are
    not and will not be fully developed this late
    in the growing season.

    If you guys are serious about growing
    seedlings go for it. I have a seedling
    Burgundy Lace that I like better than
    the old plant. Holds up better in heat
    and hot winds, not as fussy about salts
    in the soil and I get more evenness of
    color in the Spring and later on see three
    leaf colors of new growth in the Summer.
    Heck of a deal.

    Jim
     
  13. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Jim,
    Your imput is always rewarding to read. Thank you.
    Great story about your Burgundy Lace. Seed set interests
    me. As you say so I observe that some of my trees produce
    lots of samaras every year - Bloodgood, Fireglow, Moonfire,
    Azuma Murasaki, Atrolineare, Seiryu, Umegae, Maiku jaku, Red Pygmy
    Katsura, Viridis, Red ribbonleaf, Kasagiyama, Shino buga oka, Nuresagi,
    Elegans, Koto no ito, Masu muraski, Sazanami etc. Others never produce
    despite the trees being mature enough like Shaina, Red Filigree Lace (I've
    seen flowers and a very very rare seed which seems to disappear).
    Interestingly my 2 big Butterfly's have not produced 1 seed and they
    are good sized trees yet BOTH have seeds this year. Finally a Versicolor
    I have is producing lots of seed this year for this 1st time ever and yet
    a Karasugawa right next to it which has a bigger caliper and an Asahi zuru
    nearby with a caliper bigger than both have never produced a seed between
    them. I gather the maturity of maples is not just age determined and events
    can re-juvenilize a tree, but I wish I knew more about seed set. I feel chastened
    by my ignorance. And the literature on seed set is sadly non-reachable.
    I think van Gelderen's Maples of the World is a 1st rate text and we are very
    lucky to have it, but I re read for the umpteenth time last night because of
    this thread the section on inflorescences etc, and it was like Greek.
    I always learn from your posts, Jim, and I thank you for your generosity of
    knowledge. Working nurserymen seem to have the knowledge in this field
    while academic acerologists seem not to exist, and the nurserymen are working
    not publishing so our transfer of knowledge is limited & slow which makes
    forums like this that much more precious.
    Thanks for sharing, Jim.
     
  14. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Off-topic - germination of seeds

    With the advent of grafting Japanese Maples
    almost exclusively, the only real reason most
    people used as their criterion to collect seed
    was to use as a rootstock and even then there
    were not a whole lot of nurserymen that did
    try to grow their own understock. I feel
    the more successful people in the nursery
    trade on the wholesale end did grow their
    own rootstock as it gives them an advantage
    over the people that didn't, that used any
    old green rootstock that they could get their
    hands on.

    We have always been limited in research
    done on Japanese Maples in comparison
    to much more dynamic and scientific study
    on Citrus as an example. We do not have
    a lot of peer reviewed Journal articles on
    Japanese Maples to work with and lot of
    that is because the Japanese Maple has the
    connotation of being just a landscape plant
    in the mindsets of most of the intellectuals
    as opposed to Citrus that has almost global
    agronomic impact. Look at the dollars and
    who is getting them. What dollars do we get
    out of Maples in comparison? How can
    Maples ever compete with Florida Citrus?
    Who will get the funding dollar to carry out
    research and further study on Maples in
    comparison to Citrus? That is what the
    bottom line is here and why we do not have
    a lot of information in regards to Maples
    as what we got instead were individuals
    that chose to learn more about Maples
    and had to do things pretty much on their
    own with little help from anyone else.
    Ask Talon how he got into Maples and
    then ask him how tough it was to get into
    the position he is in now. Ask Andre
    Iseli how tough it was for him to get
    his plants to where they are now when
    in years past they had a problem that
    took them years to clean up. Ask
    the people that knew Richard Wolff
    sometime how many seeds he planted
    just to get a few plants that he felt he
    could name or that looked promising
    for a few years and then fell apart in
    the next couple of years and died.
    We do not have that so much in Citrus
    and one reason why is they have a
    greater selection of standardized
    rootstocks to play with. We really
    only ever had a handful of people
    that were growing their own seed
    for rootstocks and even today none
    of them are standardized in that the
    rootstock that Talon uses will it work
    well in Holland and in New Zealand
    and Japan. We have some rootstocks
    coming out of Japan that have been
    sanitized and doctored up and have
    worked well for a few locations
    but in Maples the biggest obstacle
    to overcome no matter who is
    growing these plants has been,
    we may have 1000 liner plants
    that we sold, how many of those
    plants are still alive 10 years later?
    Who goes back in and takes count
    of where are they now and how many
    are left? Then we can break it down
    further by how many are still in
    containers and how many have been
    planted in the ground.

    Anyone can try to germinate seed
    but only a couple of people have
    the patience to deal with paltry
    percentages no matter what we
    do. Take 1000 seed, stratify them,
    get perhaps 100 seed to germinate
    and then do what we have to do to
    help the seedlings along and then
    see perhaps 10 reach a bona fide
    nursery standard five gallon sized
    plant [percentages can vary from
    plant to plant, I just used a facsimile
    I had with a Dogwood as my off
    the cuff example].

    It takes a lot of initiative and is a real
    test of our patience and germinating
    seed requires us to turn the other
    cheek sometimes when we realize
    we are in a futile position of knowing
    that no matter what we do failure is
    what we are looking at much of the
    time but we go on and carry out our
    mission as planned and hope for that
    one plant we feel can make a difference.
    If we try hard enough, for long enough
    we will get that plant.

    The books can tell us how and why a plant
    produces seed and we can learn viability
    rates of seed from various plants but what
    we do not know is much about Japanese
    Maples. It is not that some cultivars never
    produce seed as there is no interest in
    people wanting to know which ones those
    are or which ones those seem to be as it
    is rare for some named forms to produce
    seed in comparison to others. Invariably
    when someone in Pleasant Hill, Oregon
    gets a Red Filigree Lace to set some
    seed it is an event that no one cares to
    know or equate but to us that have had
    that plant for 20-30 years and never have
    seen our plants yield one samara, we take
    notice of that event and become intently
    aware of what has gone on. It is the sharing
    of information like that is what is important
    not the person or the persona but the plant
    and we do not and have not talked much about
    the plant as we are too busy wanting to promote
    other things.

    What you want to know is not what causes an
    Octopus to set seed but how do we enhance that
    plants ability to set viable seed. What needs to
    happen for us to take that seed from that plant
    and be successful year in and year out with it.
    From my personal view with much of the named
    forms you are asking for too much as the proof
    is in Japan when we see what has gone on with
    seed that drops from the mother plant and we
    get some seedlings for a year or two and then
    see them perish right where they were. Then
    we see where the seed that had been dispersed
    by that mother plant had germinated near another
    Maple and those seedlings live beyond what those
    seedlings did in her nest. Drives us crazy trying to
    figure that out or why is it that a Red Squirrel can
    disperse Pecans into my containers and lo and
    behold I get more seedling Pecans from their
    interaction than if I had tried to do it myself.

    I do not have an answer for this but the misses
    has a Sherwood Flame in her front courtyard
    that has been in the ground for 15 years and
    was a good sized 15 gallon plant (roughly a
    12 year old Maple) when I put it into the
    ground for her. Every year that Maple has
    set lots of seed and until this year no seeds
    have ever germinated anywhere in the yard.
    This year we have over 100 seedlings that
    are still alive right under the tree and some
    were dispersed into other nearby planters.
    Why this year, did we see the seed germinate
    and become so many seedlings when in past
    years we saw none? Was it that the seed
    was more viable this year due to more bee
    activity than in past years? Was it that the
    tree was able to self itself a whole lot better
    than in previous years or is the seed even from
    last years seed set? We assume that the seed
    was from last year but it may not have been.
    Some Maple seed can remain in the soil for
    up to six years and not germinate so I cannot
    say that the seed that germinated was from
    last years crop as I do not know that to be a
    fact but I do know I have several seedlings
    and they are not all Sherwood Flame as some
    are Otto's dissectum and some are Ornatum.
    In all this time we had no seedlings ever in
    that planter and now we have so many that
    I cannot even go in there to hand pull the
    Oxalis out of the ground as I have orders
    not to go in there again and inadvertently
    step on a Maple seedling trying to get to
    the blasted weed that is trying to take over
    a corner of the planter. I will not lift any
    of the seedlings out of the ground either.
    They will stay right where they are until
    perhaps next year they will be ready to
    lift out of the ground when they have
    some root support then to help them
    along.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2007
  15. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Jim, very interesting observations appreciating the mystery in natures' processes. Accounting for the dynamics of all the variables that you mentioned with regard to germination patterns would be real tricky.

    Do you think that in nature certain seedlings are more robust and resist fungal disease or maybe certain environments suppress fungal growth and allow for better survival rates? Have you noticed that certain cultivar seedlings are more/less susceptible to fungal problems?

    Thanks for sharing.
     
  16. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    Wonderful share, Jim. The difficulty of it all is why I respect farmers so much. What a
    way to make a living!
    I love the midwifery of germinating maples; being so actively involved in new
    life adds to the meaning of my life. I feel like your Red Squirrel. He sounds smart!
     
  17. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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  18. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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