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  #26  
Old May 1st, 2007, 12:31 PM
de bon chemin de bon chemin is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
de bon chemin

I find your information fascinating it is exactly what I need, but I want sources. Where do you get your information from?

aron
These information can be retrieve through responsas from 1835-1892 about the big dilemma of etrogey Corfu ( Greece), it will be extremely long, laborious and complex and of no interest of other reader ( as I was already asked not to elaborate on anthropology and cultural subjects in this forum) ...

but to be short: There are no etrog that has a pedigree of nongrafted from immemorial times only from a few generations.( of course, only one responsa made the assumption
( taharat hamikva yochiach : zeria) that a branch of a grafted is itself grafted...and every one after him condemn the process but before him none were making the 2nd generation after transplanting, to be considered as a grafted only when the etrog branch was on the scion of the other tree ( orangia mare, troyer, poncirus trifolia, dragon ,....limonish, portugal, moransta)-ref: limud zechut R. Eliazar Alpandary.

REF: most of them are in Rabbinical Hebrew ( not modern and a lot of abbreviations), -the Ferrari (1356) are in Latin, and the statement of sale and buy from Greece are in low-German in hebrew transliteration ( jargon).
-peher hador ch' beit, igeret 131.
-oraat heter 1875
-divrey chachamim 1891
-divrey miluyim
-orot chaim
-chelkat yohav
-beit meir
-zichron melech
-yalkut P"HH Yuda Noach & A A Barnow
-milchemet H' b'amalek t"rnb on the Corfu Holocaust.
-nin neeman
-mizimerat haaretz

-Ferrari Hesperides 1656.
-life of L. Moses Montefiore ( biography).
the list is much longer but if you go through this one you'll be all right
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  #27  
Old May 14th, 2007, 11:48 AM
de bon chemin de bon chemin is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by de bon chemin
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron


I'm from New york. I was researching the ritual laws of esrog and came across this thing of esrogim from Cuba. i had never heard of Cuban esrogim and was fascinated to see that you knew about it. i have spoken to many people and very few had even heard about them. and nobody had any real information about them until i read your post from a year ago. i am only a little bit interested in grafted esrogim but very interested in those from Cuba. i do not have any of the books you mention. is there anything in English. i do read Hebrew but this type of stuff is easier for me in English.

good weekend
Aaron


Do you have a copy of the Citrus Industry Volume I. If not here is a link to chapters in Volumes I, II and V. Check out chapter 3 and 4 in Volume I for information about Ethrog.

The rest it's very easy where you had a Jewish communauty and the weather was for it ....you had etrogim

check this, it will help
http://lib.ucr.edu/agnic/webber/

as for the purpose of your interest....I didn't catch it
.
The message seems personal but I think that it would be interesting for the forum...you may delete the personal stuff and post these messages in the thread for everyone to see, of course to your discretion as it is your choice to do so.

Eric De Bon Chemin

i don't mind putting on the forum, i just don't know how. if you want to put it, it is fine with me.
Aaron
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  #28  
Old May 15th, 2007, 03:34 PM
esrog re esrog re is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

dear aaron.
here is a link that mention also the citron of cuba, as to be very similar to the one of Diamante which is generaly (i dont take responsibility for that) called "yaneve".
the address is [URL="http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/citron.html"]
wishing you all the best,
esrog re
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  #29  
Old May 17th, 2007, 04:10 PM
de bon chemin de bon chemin is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

Dear Aaron, rLS

Indeed, this link calls the Cuban Citron: Earle...as we marked it as the Cuban Shaddok.

Is the Sicilian sweet, as the Yanaver/Diamante/Calabro is bitter/amaretto (agrume)?
and the Shaddok is .....
I never taste the Sicilian or the Shaddok, if someone had, let us know.

Google these:

Le cédrat méditerranéen et le cédrat de Corse. de part l'Auteur : R. Huet
(presented as Hybrid as well a lot others too...)

CHAPTER 4
Horticultural Varieties of Citrus
BY ROBERT WILLARD HODGSON

Bonne fin de journee et de semaine,

Eric-Jehu de Bon Chemin
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  #30  
Old May 18th, 2007, 08:38 AM
esrog re esrog re is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

In the first page trancelated in english. maybe do you know what this means.
"The citron decorates the Arab gardens. A variety meets only in the gardens of Damas: the “Kabaab”. In Morocco, one also finds varieties typical like “Me Guergueb” of Berkane."
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  #31  
Old May 18th, 2007, 08:54 AM
esrog re esrog re is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

"Sweet Citron Varieties.—The only widely-grown sweet citron variety is the Corsican, which is described below. The literature does not disclose other sweet-fruited varieties of general distribution. That there are some varieties of local importance is indicated by Chapot (1950b and 1962a), who described two of Moroccan origin: Assads and M'Guergueb."
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  #32  
Old May 18th, 2007, 12:34 PM
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Re: Etrog Questions

Now that my interest has been peaked
in this thread I am wondering where
some of you are going with this topic.
I sense some areas of noncommittal,
whether it is due to religious or faith
reasons or for other factors I do not
know about, yet for me to open up with
what I have learned along the way may
require some intentions stated for me
to proceed further than I will here in
this note. The inherent problem is that
several of us are outsiders to the secular
aspects of this fruit. I am not wanting to
offend anyone in regards to this subject
and probably will unintentionally, so my
hands are tied with this subject matter
until someone speaks out and tells what
they really want to know here.

I will say this now that there are Etrogs
in the greater Los Angeles vicinity that
are and have been on their own roots for
several years, since the early to mid 50's
that I know of and probably were around
in the area before then. If you want to go
into more depth into how those trees came
into the Los Angeles and nearby areas and
when, then you my want to contact people
in the Santa Ana area which is in Orange
County.

The Corsica probably came to California
through Florida. I believe the Assad or a
form close to it came into the Southern
California region from people soon after
WWII.

Perhaps a Temple or two can help you guys
further than I will and can lend a helping hand
on the Sweet Citron that has been in the Los
Angeles and nearby areas in the past that may
have come in years ago through Israel..

Jim
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  #33  
Old May 18th, 2007, 02:38 PM
de bon chemin de bon chemin is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

To Mr. Shepp

Is the Etrog a Citrus Medica-Mallus Meddei between others or a trackable fruit with its own genetics, morpho. and taxo. differentiable of other citrus medica??
Or I think that the question, cogito nunc sum ...
As for the direction of the thread, that the way the cookie crumbles, let enjoy it.
Have a vonderful week end and a happy one.
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  #34  
Old May 20th, 2007, 11:07 AM
esrog re esrog re is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

To all who want to understand the discussions about esrog.
It is to determine which kind of citron (citrus medica) is more likely to be considered kosher by Jews.
The main discussed issue was that the esrog (etrog/ethrog etc. depends on the way of pronouncement in Hebrew which varies by origins of the writers) should be authentic, and not a hybrid with some other fruit which cannot be considered as an esrog.
The believe in which esrog is more authentic or less, is also variable, and depends also in origin of what the people over there believed about or had the opportunity to get that kind of esrogim.
By the time going many questions arisen:
1) Is the Yemenite more authentic because it got no pulp, and the others should be considered as hybrids with pulpy and juicy fruits like the lemon?
2) Are the Yemenite and Moroccan more authentic because of there is no grafting practiced there for the esrog, and maybe ban the Diamante because grafting is widely practiced over there for years (centuries?) and even the non-grafted ones are questioned for being descendents of hybrids, which may not be considerd better then their parents (except for a few opinions like the beth Efraim, de bon chemin etc.)?
3) Or maybe should we say that because the Diamante was used for centuries (a fact that could be discussed, it is built on a theory that it was called "yanove - genoa" because of distribution by there) it should be the only one considered authentic, not the Yemenite which is quite different by being pulpless, and not the Moroccan by being partially seedless?
4) Looking for the reasons why and how the Yemenite got pulpless (if it wasn't the authentic one) and how the Moroccan got partially seedless, and if something could be done to correct them without out cross pollination, which would make them worse.
5) Investigating the effects of grafting and breeding and how they could affect the progeny and hybridization.
6) Looking for linkage. Let's ask if the Greek citron growing in Naxos is it native to Greece? Or should we rather look for one in Crete, Parga or Corfu?
7) From were are the citron growing today in Israel originating. Are some of them from Corfu? Yes. Which are they? Which are endemic to Israel? Which were never grafted?
8) And so on – is the Yemenite native to India? The Moroccan to Corsica? No problem. But was grafting practiced in that regions at that times?
For some those questions are very interesting, especially for religious Jews. But the scientific experts are very helpful in such discussions and could help them getting into planting citrons under rabbinical supervision.
Thanks for all joining the discussions and sharing their knowledge.
All the best.
Esrog Research
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  #35  
Old May 21st, 2007, 08:18 AM
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Re: Etrog Questions

Even descendant plants that have been
propagated for many years can show us
physical characteristics that may or can
differ from the parent plant grown in the
same area. We can also see elements of
the plants being different by where they
are grown such as bring in a plant from
Israel and grow it here in the San Joaquin
Valley and we might see some slight
changes in the plant over time in the
plant grown here. Such as a difference
in rind color that may not be seen in
Israel. Rind color can be impacted by
coolness at or during the time or ripening
as an example. We can also influence
the amount of seeds a fruit will have by
our growing culture on several of the
Citrus. One way is to limit the activity
of honeybee pollination for some Citrus
(some Mandarins for example will produce
more seed per segment if the trees were
bee pollinated), another is leave some
plants in a solitary setting whereby no
other foreign pollen can contaminate the
host tree or in some cases have all of the
trees cross pollinated by another like tree
(tree that is the same).

The probability that Etrogs that came from
Israel that were brought into the US had
not been subjected to foreign pollen from
another Citrus tree is more likely to be close
to nill in a landscape, although the possibility
exists that some backyard trees may not
have been grown anywhere near another
form of Citrus such as a Lemon or an Orange.
Should an Etrog have been grown near or
close by to another Citrus form tree, then
to have a pure line Etrog for duplication
purposes would force the seed to have to
be discarded. Rooting cuttings, layering
or air layering or today through cellular
propagation such as tissue culture of the
parent plant would be the only way to
ensure "pureness" in the plant. Even
then the parent plant can be impacted
by where it is grown or has been grown
for a number of years that may show
some changes we can see in the progeny.
I believe the Diamante has two selected
forms that came about from the original
plant that were selected out and named
here in California and it is likely that both
forms arose from seed.

I also believe that over time an Etrog that
was grown in Haifa may not look quite the
same as the same tree might grown in Tel
Aviv, even if both plants came from the same
source in the Holy Land. I've seen it happen
in a few other plants and a lot of the time it
is due to the trees culture, how it was grown
differently from the other tree. That is the
basis why a plant grown in Holland may not
look the same as the same exact plant is
when grown here or a Maple grown on its
own roots for many years in Japan can look
different than the same Maple grown for many
years here on its own roots can look like.

I believe the Etrog and Esrog to be different
from each other. I also feel these two plants
are Citrons but can be separated from most
of the Citrons due to the molded ribbing we
can see and feel on the outside of the fruit.
I believe the Diamante can in some cases
also can have the appearance of the smoothed
over ribs much like an Esrog but the ribs are
not molded which yields an ever so slight feel
of the ribbing being present but they are not
as distinct as the Esrog.

I agree that the Etrog has less albedo inside
the fruit than most Citrons. Much like how I
can tell an old Shaddock which I learned to be
Citrus maxima and was called a Pomelo
from the Citrus grandis which is now
called a Pummelo. The old Pomelo plant may
have been a hybrid but we do not know for
sure whereas the Pummelos are all considered
hybrids in some way. Again for the latter we
are not sure but I am going by a consensus
opinion of the Pummelos.

The rabbinical philosophy is highly important
for the Etrog as we need to know what they
base their reasoning on to give a fruit or tree
kosher status other than the presence of the
molded ribs, the uniformity of rind color without
any discoloration, the shape of the nipple on the
apical end in some cases and whether the fruit
came from a tree on its own roots. Surely through
time these plants have changed a little and I
believe that has been taken into account. It will
be rather tough now to source back a plant or a
line of plants and determine it was the original
source plant when we factor in that the plants
that came into Israel may have come from
somewhere else such as Palestine and Persia.
Therein is the part of the problem as through
trade these plants may have originated in
Corsica or Italy and we just have no way of
knowing. Personally, I would not worry too
much about that. Link and source the plants
back to Israel and the Holy Land and you will
have your basis to think of the Etrog as being
in the Citron family but may also have been
its own nature caused hybrid through a series
of gene mutations which allows for the Etrog
to be different in rind color, the amount of
albedo inside the fruit and the size, shape of
the fruit and the molded ribbing that gives the
Etrog different physical characteristics than the
other known Citrons at the present time. That
is not to say that the Diamante cannot have
come from an Etrog as we do not know much
about these plants and their origins as much
of the basis the intellectual community go on
is where the tree was found, which does not
mean that the tree was endemic to that particular
location or region.

Jim
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  #36  
Old May 21st, 2007, 11:21 AM
esrog re esrog re is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

Thank you Mr. Shep.
The rabbinical position is based more or less as to get evidence for pure, non-grafted, and non-hybridized lines.
An ancient rabbinical opinion (about 300 years ago) which was always considered and discussed, was to use differentials (like those described in this forum by De Bon Chemin) to determine if a citron (which is called in Hebrew: Esrog/Etrog/Ethrog) was grafted or not. I actually found a hybrid growing in Greece which has all of those differentials, also a picture from Vilkamer where they are also found. The last is said to be growing in Genoa, Italy where the citrons for religious use were grown in that time, and for which this differentials were most probably given to ensure that the Jewish costumer gets a real Esrog/Citron and not a hybrid.
The main question is now how those changes occurred, since grafting is now I think proven not to change the progeny? A fact which is accepted also by many rabbinical authorities.
I raised an opinion that grafting in the ancient was of been practiced not for cold hardiness or resistance purposes, since the grafting methods and recommended rootstock were not established in that time, nor was the effect of pollination, out-cross-pollination and so on. Also I would say, and I have rabbinical prove for this, that in that time it wasn't done on a commercial matter, only in home gardens as for sport and adventure.
For all that reasons, and to answer the above and some more questions I would assume that grafting was than practiced by leaving the rootstock branches on the tree, in that way it wasn't practical for commercial use, and it resulted in changes to the progeny.
De Bon Chemin seems to have studied very well the differentials between the citron and the lemon, and his work which will be appreciated by us, will lead to the establishment of a pure line cultivar, which will with rabbinical guidance, be accepted by the Jewish publicum. He will be able to name his cultivar however he wishes.
As I wrote, people can call their plantations as they wish, since there is no known methods to enforce a name for a fruit. However, if one wants to sell them for Jewish people, he most get a "Hechsher"- certification from a qualified rabbi. In fact the most popular kosher citrons are not called with the name "esrog" or similar in Latin.
Also, it makes no difference for the citron – in rabbinical point of view – if it originates from Israel or not. In fact many orthodox Jews refrain from using any citron from Israel, since grafting and breeding were practiced there in large.
The main discussion on the citrons are if they were traditionally used in some place, to insure an opinion from late rabbinical sources that it is to be called citron or esrog, and not a hybrid. The discussions about linkage are for the same purposes.
The main traditional lines are those discussed in the latest letter of mine, and the questions among them are also, I think, clear. However those questions which are not only concerning me, but the entire Jewish community as well, might get some answers with the help of a qualified scientist like you. I will therefore provide you any information required in the way to get answers on those questions.
Thank You
Esrog Research
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  #37  
Old May 21st, 2007, 11:22 AM
de bon chemin de bon chemin is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

Yes, couldn't be exposed better.
Thank you.
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  #38  
Old May 21st, 2007, 06:42 PM
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Re: Etrog Questions

Etrogs were around in some locales
in the greater Los Angeles area before
the 50's and all the trees that I once
knew of, by the select individuals that
had them, were on their own roots.

Even all through the 50's virtually all
Citrus sold and grown in California
came about from rooted cuttings.
There were some trials in which a
Lemon was budded onto a Citrange
and then rooted cuttings were made
from wood from that put together
plant and later grown on and sold.
This process is how some of the
first semi-dwarf forms came about
for resale to commercial growers
and to home gardeners. The
dilemma at that time was that
the two parent put together plants
did not live long but the budded
plant served as the prototype plant
for nurseries to sell rooted cuttings
to people that had some dwarfing
characteristics, that came about
from the Citrange rootstock parent.

Also, this union incorporated into
the Lemons genome more cold
resistance, thus our Lemon in
its first year of transplanting from
the Los Angeles area to the San
Joaquin Valley was able to endure
temperatures down to 6 degrees
when all other Meyer Lemons
on their own roots probably would
have perished. To make comment
that the “recessive” rootstock does
not and cannot affect the genetic
makeup of the more dominant
scion plant is not true. About one
out of 25 seedlings raised from
fruit from our Meyer Lemon tree
on its own roots will yield seedling
progeny with trifoliate leaves.

The proof that the genes from the
rootstock have become intermixed
into the dominant scion's genome
can be seen on occasion in the
seedlings raised from seed.
This is why one of us has made
the comment that a store bought
fruit from a grafted plant will
not yield true to type seedlings
in another Citrus forum. The
seedlings will in most cases look
similar to the parent plant but a
small percentage of the seedlings
can also look like the rootstock
parent.

I have an old budded Murcott
Mandarin on Carrizo rootstock
that has yielded about 2% of its
seedlings from the seed gathered
from the fruit that will show the
trifoliate characteristics in the
leaves of the seedlings. Most
all of those seedlings in fact
produce a Mandarin looking
fruit and some of these plants
also will produce a Navel in
the basal end of the fruit on
occasion, which pretty well
tells us which parent was the
seed bearing parent for the
Carrizo rootstock.

Preliminary grafting on Citrus in
the US came about years later
but budding Citrus onto a rootstock
can be traced back to the 30's and
was done mostly by experimental
stations. It was nearer the 70's that
selected rootstocks really came
about when rough Lemon and two
of the Swingle trifoliate Citranges
were used as rootstocks by grower
nurseries. I seriously doubt that
Citrus have been propagated by
grafting or budding for very long
in Israel and certainly not before
trees were beginning to be put
together here and in Florida as
well.

Jim

Last edited by mr.shep; May 21st, 2007 at 08:14 PM.
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  #39  
Old May 22nd, 2007, 04:32 PM
de bon chemin de bon chemin is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

We do know that Greecs and Romans were doing a special (very strange) grafting in order to obtain Chimeras and Bizarria ( much earlier than the Italian ones, in the XIII CA) has reported n their early Mythology.
But the modern breeders reject the assumption that rootstock has any influence in genetic heritage of the scion, only in intersect "traits" .
I received a long article, from this forum in reference to the subject...but it is still very nebulous to me.
again thank you
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  #40  
Old May 23rd, 2007, 08:09 AM
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Re: Etrog Questions

No, for many years the Fruit Tree breeders
with their trees on Nemaguard and Nemared
and even Titan (Almond) rootstock will attest,
by the number of their seedlings produced
from their budded and grafted trees that a
significant number of the seedlings raised
from seed will be more like the rootstock
parent in their fruiting characteristics. The
concept still holds true today when seed
gathered from a Peach grafted onto water
Peach rootstock will yield in more cases
than not a seedling Peach that is closer to
looking like the varietal Peach parent but
will yield fruit more like the water Peach.
This has been standard applied theory and
practice in Fruit Tree breeding for many
years.

The number of Citrus looking like the
rootstock parent is a smaller percentage
than in Fruit Trees but the number of
seedling rootstock that will appear
like and yield fruit like the rootstock
parent is seen, usually are discarded by
today's method of selection if people
will let it and most people today do not
let it get that far but nonetheless the
same rootstock appearing progeny
do show up often enough to give the
probability of us seeing it happening
significance. To a plant breeder to give
something significance means it will
happen. We'll see it in other words.

We have to qualify that grafting in the
olden days was stem grafting on a parent
line tree on its own roots. That is not the
same process of grafting a scion onto a
rootstock parent and making the newly
put together plant a whole (top growth
only) duplication of the scion wood parent.
Whereas a stem graft on a branch leaves
the parent tree almost whole except where
the stem grafts have been incorporated
into the tree. The areas of the stem grafted
branch from below the grafted area along
the way to the base of the branch is still
that of the parent tree. Whole branches
to be a different variety than the parent tree
were budded to become a different variety
long before the trees were whole branch
grafted to yield the prototype 2 n 1 and
3 n 1 variety trees. Even still this is
asexual propagation of which seed from
the fruit obtained from the stem grafted
area will still produce a number of
seedlings that are more like the parent
plant than they are the like stem scion
wood parent for sexual breeding purposes
and for further selection. Our proof lies
in the number of offspring that are more
like the parent tree. It is because there
will be a number of seedling offspring that
are not like the chimera is why people
today almost automatically will take wood
from the chimera and graft it onto a seedling
rootstock and not spend lots of time dealing
with the seedlings. When in the olden days
people would take seed from the fruit from
the chimera and grow the seedlings on and
select out the seedlings that showed signs
of being like the chimera and discarding all
of their other seedlings along the way that
looked like the parent tree. Some advanced
people would save the discarded seedlings
for later use as a rootstock. To those of us
that have done it we can certify that many
more seedlings are discarded before we
end up with the chimera like plants that
will hold true when grown on to become
a plant on its own roots and then yield
seedlings that are true to the original
chimera. Even still there will be a small
percentage of seedlings grown on that
will not show the characteristics of the
original chimera even after several years
of selection.

In some cases in the past the seed from the
sectional chimera fruit were sterile to start
with. Some never did yield viable seed, thus
we are more likely to see wood propagated
to preserve the chimera in more recent
years. In the olden days a chimera (branch
sport) could be influenced to come about
just due to a stem graft incompatibility with
the host tree branch. In some Citrus the
abnormal growth can live up to seven years
and not have the branch die on us which
gives us plenty of time to select fruit from
wood emanating from the graft incompatibility
induced chimera and grow the seed from the
fruit on from there and select out the newly
created Blood Orange or whatever other Citrus
over time as was done using this same method
of selection in years past.

Jim

Last edited by mr.shep; May 23rd, 2007 at 03:56 PM.
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  #41  
Old May 29th, 2007, 03:18 PM
esrog re esrog re is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

Thank you very much Mr. Shep. - would you please send me the link your previous discussion about graft hybrids?
To the authors. - Wouldn't it be helpful to combine all Threads discussing etrog, in one?

Last edited by esrog re; May 29th, 2007 at 03:57 PM.
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  #42  
Old May 30th, 2007, 06:56 AM
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Posts: 1,394
Re: Etrog Questions

I am not referencing a link. If I was paraphrasing
a written document or basing my comments solely
on published material that could be found online
I would have included it. What I've told is hands
on applied knowledge of Citrus and other Fruit
trees, learned and applied theory and personal
accounts that not just anyone knows about or
had access to.

Sometime read Vol. II of the Citrus Industry to
get some more background. An online link to
that ahead of its time, collaborative work is listed
below.

VOLUME II. ANATOMY, PHYSIOLOGY, GENETICS, AND REPRODUCTION

Not all of the volumes of these great works on
Citrus are online. The Vol. IV and Vol. V books
can be purchased through this link below. Note:
cookies have to be enabled in your browser
settings to have access to the catalog.

ANR Catalog - University of California

Actually, this forum format has made it real easy
to link to most any discussion on Etrogs just by
a keyword search query. I am hoping at some
time that a commercial Esrog grower in the same
County as our production Citrus are grown, whom
contacted me through the UBC forum via a private
message, will chime in at some point in time and
provide some insight of what he had to go through
just to market his fruit but that is his choice to tell
or not.

Jim
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  #43  
Old October 28th, 2008, 07:50 AM
dan123 dan123 is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

aron or de bon chemin, can you direct me to a source on Panama esrogim having been disqualified by the rabbis (as being grafted)? Thank you very much.
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  #44  
Old October 28th, 2008, 12:55 PM
aron aron is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

i do not have any refrences right now. an article i recently read, i think by ari zivotafsky in the jewish observer (probably september), might mention something about it.
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  #45  
Old October 29th, 2008, 09:24 AM
de bon chemin de bon chemin is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

I don't know about the Panama C. Medica in particular. You could check with the Botanic Garden in Panama city

But, the "Espagniola Islands" had many C. Medica. Some of them from Cuba and Porto-Rico, these were used during the WWII, Haiti has one, S. Domingo too.( called the Earl but there is argument in ref. to that).
The Ancians ignored the Male-Female ( etamine-pollen and pistil-ovum) relation to get a fruit and by analogy to zoological hybridation mixed the the fiber of branches of two plants, most of the time with no compatibility between the two plants .
The Grafting in an Bizzaria or Shimera- was made by the union or inclusion of fiber of one plant to the other. The "united" branch was giving ( after many tries) an sporty branch that gave fruits with 2 phenotypes (but with 2 differents genotypes too), as no true hybridation was made.

Imagination helping, they developed many other ways, suctions and union from roots to roots, branch to branch unions, trunc to trunc...some of these grafting are still in use in our days
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  #46  
Old October 29th, 2008, 11:50 AM
dan123 dan123 is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

Thank you, Bon Chemin. I was referring to this quote from last year: "some places were disquilify by the rabbis through the centuries:
corfue,rodhes,sardenia,corsico, panama,haiti." Are there any additional sources for this (particularly regarding Panama) of which you are aware? Also, any perspective on the graft/non-grafted status of the Cuban variety that was discussed previously? Aron, did you ever investigate the Cuban variety further? I have a major question regarding this. Bon Chemin, you referred to this citron as either "Earle" or a "Cuban Shaddock". According to the book "CRC Handbook of Alternative Cash Crops" by James A. Duke, the Earle "closely resembles the Diamante [Yanover]", while the Cuban Shaddock is a "fruit closely resembling the citron". In other words, the Cuban Shaddock is not a citron or etrog (not Citrus Medica), so this is an important distinction. An "Earle" would make it among the most desirable of Etrogim (akin to Diamante), whereas a "Cuban Shaddock" would render it unfit for ritual use (assuming Duke is correct and this is NOT Citrus Medica). Finally, Bon Chemin, when you speak of "these graftings" that "are still is use today" what location are you referring to? The purpose of my asking these questions is that I am trying to map out what etrogim in the Americas do not have a tradition/pedigree of being grafted. If they are not grafted (and are botanically Citrus Medica L.), it may provide an economic boost to these countries, such as Cuba and Panama if the fruit can be exported for ritual use.
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  #47  
Old November 19th, 2008, 03:20 PM
aron aron is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

Ii am sorry it has taken me this long to respond, i was having computer troubles.
I do not know much about the South American esrogim. In fact I first came to this site looking to investigate the matter. Aside from what I read here and what I heard from one old timer who remembered using Cuban esrogim during WWII I know nothing more.
However regarding your main question, using South American esrogim for the holiday. Given todays enviroment, the major users, the tri-state area, are very wary of where their esrogim come from. Many won't use Moroccan, Yannover, Yemminite or even Israeli becuase their lineage is not good enough. (What I mean is that some reject one variety and others a different variety. If they rejected all the above varieties they wouldn't be able to use any esrog.) I doubt they would consider a newly indrotuced variety. I say this from a practical prespective, from a halachic perspective a clear tration of CONSTANT use is required. (See Mishna Berrurah 648:32- offhand I think that is the correct source.) S American esrogim do not have that.
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  #48  
Old November 19th, 2008, 04:35 PM
dan123 dan123 is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

Thanks for the input. The only thing that may suggest otherwise is that there was a grower in California who decided to grow esrogim for ritual use -- grower named John Kirkpatrick (San Joaquin Valley) who grew them on behalf of Yisroel Weinberger of NY -- and apparently they were able to be sold despite lack of tradition of constant use. (See link below for an article about the crop being ruined one year due to a freeze -- may have to cut and paste):

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-...playstory.html

Nevertheless, thanks for your input. It seems this issue needs to be investigated further.
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  #49  
Old November 19th, 2008, 04:45 PM
dan123 dan123 is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

Just to clarify from my previous post, it seems (is implied from the article) that these California esrogim were halachically accepted, which is why they were sold....So I guess my real question is: If the California would be accepted with no tradition of constant use, would Panama, for example, be different?
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  #50  
Old November 20th, 2008, 08:12 PM
Shalom Yaakov Shalom Yaakov is offline
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Re: Etrog Questions

The Citrons in Californis are apparently imported from certified places, under rabbinical supervision.
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